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Old 11-16-2004, 12:01 PM   #1 (Print)
Mr. Soze
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Question Fox hunting ban.

Let me preface this by saying that I get most of my opinions about daily life in the UK from listening to BBC Radio Five Live (mistake #1?), but I can't for the life of me figure out why there is such a desire on behalf of what seems like primarily Labour MP's, who I again presume reflect mainly an urban constituency, have their knickers in a twist (you have got to love that phrase) over hunting to the extent they do.

PS - I hope this is not considered political. If it is, I guess I have my answer.
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Old 11-16-2004, 07:59 PM   #2 (Print)
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vos they want to please the bl00dy hippies.

the hippies / urban types see foxes as cute fluffy thigns that nick the odd chicken. they see the photos of mauled foxes and decide that that is wrong. so they ask / tell the govt to ban it - govt concede as they are too weak to actually stand up and correct the ignorance of many of the public. they just want the short term votes.

long story short - imho hunting is much much more than the actual (rare) killing of a fox - it is a whole economic system that the govt / urban public knows nothing about - how commerce int he farm world is done.

plus killing a fox with a shotgun is actually very rarely effective. poisening isnt nice either.

speaking as the (step)son of a farmer.

cue flames.......

the farmers dont tell londoners how to sort traffic problems out - so londoners dont muck with farming issues.

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Old 11-16-2004, 09:00 PM   #3 (Print)
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I am a little worried about Labour, especially with the smoking and fatty people stuff on the news today... As a non smoker, and a employee who is forced to work in a smoking enviroment sometimes, I do understand that passive smoking is a problem. But for legistration to stop it, well maybe going a little too far...

Personally I don't vote and therefore should not have any political say..

I am going to bed now as I don't know what I am typing.. What a constructive post not... I will edit in the morning when a little more aware of what I am doing.. Nite nite happy people..

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Old 11-16-2004, 10:19 PM   #4 (Print)
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As a non smoker, and a employee who is forced to work in a smoking enviroment sometimes, I do understand that passive smoking is a problem

hmm - 'forced' - like a barman for example? no - there is no such thing as forced - well in this day and age - but yes - as a smoker i am aware that some peeps dont like it - fine - dont go into pubs / go to non smoking pubs?


reminds me of an odd discussion a mate was having with another (gay) mate -

said gay bloke is an avid footballer - in a gay-only league.
said straight bloke wants to start a hetro-only league - just to prove a point - but hes not allowed - cos its not politically correct - yet he (hetro) is not allowed to join the (gay) league??? Isnt that discrimination against straights?

Just an example of the 'please the minority, stuff the majority' attitude that seems to prevail with our current leadership- yet the majority are not allowed to get upset, as thats not 'correct' - the fox hunting thing is just the most controversial thing in a very very long list of stuff like this..

rant rant rant... bl00dy political bl00dy corectbness gone bl00dy mad.

bring back the victorians / enoch powell and get this country sorted out - then we can have a country worth being proud of again.

(in a similar vein, I was in a taxi a while ago who had been asked to remove the george cross from his car as it was considered offensive)


Oh - I sooooooooo know this is going to be moderated.. hey ho. so much for the free world eh?

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:58 AM   #5 (Print)
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Ok - I'll take the bait.

Please let's keep this calm and civil from the outset. No flaming, no punching below the belt.

RE: Fox hunting.

I realise there is a whole other apsect to fox hunting other than the chasing and killing of the fox. The actual chase/kill being a small part and the whole pomp/pagentry/socialising/business being the major part.

I also realise that foxes are pests that kill chickens that need to be controlled.

However - I don't consider it right to set up a whole business/social event around the death of an animal whereby it is stressed and ran to exhaustion for *several hours* and then ripped to bits by hounds.

It is time to move on. Set up a new form of monthly social event/tradition in those communities, a new event that still supports as much of the infrastructure as fox hunting did/does. One not centred around a long drawn-out process of the harrassment and violent death of an animal.

I don't understand how shooting a fox ( which I would support as a method of pest control ) is ineffective - please explain.

To me it appears it would be a quick and less stressful death for the fox ( unless you are a crap aim in which case you shouldn't be shooting in the first place )

I do understand that poisoning is difficult to target and also a slow death for an animal.

Here's my cheap shot -> We didn't maintain public executions to keep the orange sellers in business. We moved to a more civilised "closed" execution setup ( and finally no death penalty )

RE: Gay footy

Your gay/straight friends have cooked up a (hypothetical) argument that looks at only the facts: "hetero can't join the gay team" and concluded discrimination against hets.

Your straight friend can't join a womens footy team - does that make the womens team guilty of discriminating against men ?

When it comes to minority groups and discrimination you *have to* look at the reasons behind the rulings:

Why would your straight friend want to make a hetero-only team ? Is he a queer-basher ? Can he not stand the thought of gays on the pitch or in the locker room ? That would be the conclusion drawn if such a team were formed in the real world. ( But in reality he only wants to form the team hypothetically to win an argument against his gay friend )

Gay football leagues were formed because amateur gay players wanted to play football and still be "out" without getting constant abuse ranging from teasing to physical attacks from other straight players. Even though a lot of attitudes are changing lately, UK footy still remains one of the most homophobic subcultures.

When all UK footy teams have openly gay players who don't get abuse screamed at them from the stands, then *that* will be the time to call for the abolition of amateur gay teams.

Reversing the rules on minority groups to prove the reverse discrimination exists is a specious argument that whitewashes over the *reasons* a minority had to form it's own group to start with.

RE: Smoking

I am a non smoker. My mum died at 62 of smoking-related lung disease. Bed-ridden for the final three years, constantly needing an oxygen cylinder with many hospital stays. That's just to say where I am coming from.

Definitely there should be a complete ban on smoking in the work place and on public transport. As a side effect of their addiction smokers create a fall-out area that affects not just themselves. In the workplace and public transport, people *have to* be around each other, hence smokers should be prevented from affecting other workers.

It is leisure time that barriers start blurring...

Definitely, there should be separate sections for smoking in cafes/restaurants. If there can't be a separate section then there should be no smoking in that establishment.

It is bars I don't know where I stand. If there were a ban on smoking in bars I would I try and focus on the longer-term benefits of ( hopefully ) reducing smoking takeup by the young, and thus the benefits to the health of the nation as a whole. Although I do have pangs about "nanny-statehood" when it comes to bars.

I am pretty sure there will be lots of loopholes for bars to get out of the ban - the private members club retaining smoking seems a big loophole. I foresee many smoking bars issuing membership cards on the door in exchange for £3 - flash an unstamped card at the bar and they give you a drink to the value of £3 and stamp the card. You then inhale the lovely smokey atmosphere and guzzle your "free" drink. Keep your card for your next visit, or "re-join" again next time. It will be a hassle for drop-in punters but bars may deem it worth it to keep the smoking privileges.

I certainly have no sympathy for loss of revenue to the tobacco companies or to the shops that sell tobacco.
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:28 AM   #6 (Print)
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Hello chaps..

Quick recovery from my post last night..

Fox hunting, don't give a damm really. Thing the people who want it banned don't really understand the country types??.

Gay football teams.. Well haven't really thought about that, had a funny mental image for a second. Not really got a problem with that either, the argument from the last poster was a good one..

Now smoking again.
Maybe I was a bit strong when I said "forced". I am a service engineer and about 10% of my jobs involves repairing computer equipment and epos equipment in pubs behind the bars. I do not like this aspect of my job. If I were to tell my boss I did not want to do this 10% of my role being a large company he would chat to hr and come back with ok no problems. But I know I will then be the first on the project list or redundancy when it comes up.
I don't like crowded shopping centers and some smokers lack of respect for smoking around me.
A example was at a recent football match I took my son to, I know only a few football clubs have certain smoke free stands, but the guy sitting next to my son was openly smoking cannabis with his friend. I can handle someone sitting next to him smoking, but cannabis was a little too much for a nine year old. Although in true english spirt, I did not say anything I was a tad annoyed and my son being exposed to this. It is not as if we could of moved seats.

I think it is more down to the respect people have for the country they live in, I haven't got too much of a problem with someone walking down the street having a cigarette, but to sit next to me in the high street and light one up is disrespectful.
Same thing goes with a dog shitting on the pavement and the owner just walking on by, again no respect. Must be an age thing, but the kids of today hanging round the streets..... Jesus I am getting old, right gota go to collect my pension..

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Old 11-17-2004, 01:45 PM   #7 (Print)
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OK, I'll take the bait in the huntind debate, and chuck in my pennys worth.

First I live in the country, and have done all my life, keep chicken, ducks etc, and two farms within a few minuites walk.

I do agree that foxes can be a problem, but hunting them with dogs is very ineffective. they only ever cath a few every year locally, and as the pictures show, they do get ripped apart by a pack of dogs bread solely for the purpose.

There are two estates near me, who raise phesants, and the gamekeeper from one estate is a friend, and he regularly goes out shoting foxes. He's killed over 50 this season alone. Much more effective, and humane.

Hunting like the Scots, with a marksman, fine by me, but it can't continue like present.

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:22 PM   #8 (Print)
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regarding the gay football - i obv wasnt terribly clear..

BOTH the gay and the straight mates think it is silly that the hetro cant join the team (if he so wished). it wasnt an argument - it was more of a musing on life. no hes not a queer basher. the gay is one of his mates... drop that potato off your shoulder dude...

if a woman turned up to a (male) football team, and asked to join, and was told -no, your a woman - then she would kick up a stink.. if a man attempted to join a womans team, he would be told no and imho would probably not kick up a stink. (prob cos his mates would laugh at him... )same basic principle..

obv the straight who wished to join the gay team would have to be vetted for his attitude (towards gays) - but nothing else, surely? who cares who he sleeps with, be it sheep or blow up dolls. lol

I cant remember precisely why my stepfather was of the belief that shooting wasnt as effective on foxes - but i have a vague recollection of the fact that they are clever little buggers, and they will often run when they see a gun, unlike dumb rabbits / birds. and will keep out of mans sight.. or somehting like that.

I also like being controversial, even if i cant spell of type.

This is half the problem I think in the uk - noone wants to argue unless they are then seen as the bad person - a good debate has to have an opposite view (I remember my brother in a Jury managing to convince the whole jury one way, then back, then back again, just by putting alternative views out. he then got bored and let it go - guilty - and he had a long list of previous.

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Old 11-17-2004, 05:24 PM   #9 (Print)
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Ok just to confuse things further I'm going to compare foxhunting with bullfighting and say that I find it strange that the whole of the Spanish people have no problem with a far more blatantly mindless, cruel, utterly pointless and totally onesided (at least the fox has a chance) sport but we Brits are obsessed with a sport which doesn't put itself on public show (not the kill bit I mean), does have some purpose and does give the fox a chance to get away if he is wily and clever.

We have a family apartment in good old Mallorca in Spain that we have had for years but having gradually exhausted all of Mallorca's other attractions over the years (caves, mountains, monasteries, safari parks etc) the fact that the island had four bull rings suddenly came to my attention. Actually I had always thought bullfighting sounded naff and anyway each bullring only has about 6 events a year so it was usually not when I was there.

Anyway to cut a long story short I have been out there more in the last two years and have now seen three bullfights - one in Alcudia, one in Muro and one in Palma (the capital). So this clearly means I was sad enough to go back for more not because I loved seeing the bulls killed but to see what difference there was in how it was conducted and the attitude of the people. But as at Alcudia and Muro there were 6 bulls each with 3 bullfighters and at Palma 8 bulls with 8 bullfighters I have now seen a lot of bills killed.

Anyhow basically bullfighting is a sick sport and if anything was to be banned this should be it as it is like old fashioned British cockfighting or the Lions and the Christians that went on hundreds of years ago.

Every time a bull comes out and some guys on horses then go and stab him in the back with big spiers and then some other guys on foot run and slam some smaller pikes in the poor old bull's back. At that point the bullfighter then appears and waves his cape around to get the poor old bull to run at it to music before he jumps to one side at the last minute. Then finally he gets a long, thin, sharp sword and slams it in the bull who either dies quietly and quickly or starts spurting blood from his mouth before bellowing and falling on the ground. Or the bull runs round really suffering and bellowing and they have to try and get another sword and stick it in him.

The only difference in each fight is that for the ones nearer the end of the proceedings the bull is meaner and has been drugged a little less beforehand and some of the matadors are better artistically and do a much more stylish job of making the bull run around.

But I find the sport totally outrageous because it is totally unfair and even the best bull who really puts up a fight and avoids the matador for a long, long time will still be killed and killed often painfully and in the most bloody way. Also it is as repetititous as a football game (sorry football lovers) and I cannot believe anyone would go to these things year after year. The spanish who are into it though chuck their handkerchiefs and hats into the ring if the bull is killed quickly and stylishly and seem to love it.

My conclusion is if you want to start with banning something mindlessly cruel to animals then start with bullfighting and not with foxhunting.

Foxhunting is not ritualistic slaughter for a paying audience in the same way that bullfighting is and what is more those bastard foxes killed my guinea pigs one night when i was 7 so I haven't had much time for them ever since.

People being against foxhunting is purely class war on the English upper and rural classes. No one proposes banning coarse fishing yet but scooping inedible polluted fish out of a canal with a hook before casting them back to die of septacemia is far more cruel and far more pointless. But nobody says ban this because these guys wear anoraks and are all ordinary working class.

In summary if you care about animals forget the fox and go after bullfighting where the real cruelty lies.
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Old 11-17-2004, 05:58 PM   #10 (Print)
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Yep, nice post...

Have just watched the Spain Vs England match (sorry I do like football!).

It was sad that the Spanish fans found it necessary to make gorilla noises at our black players whenever they had the ball..

Spanish people can be a little strange.

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Old 11-17-2004, 08:12 PM   #11 (Print)
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just to make bullfighting more 'unfair' - they often cut the tendons to the neck, so it has a weak 'lift'

its a bit like fishing for a minnow with a 20Lb line - the minnow has no chance. i like fishing for 10Lb+ fish with a 5-10 lb line - at least the poor sod has a chance...

like the fox..

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Old 11-18-2004, 03:41 AM   #12 (Print)
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Captain - I agree that bullfighting is cruel and worse than fox hunting. If I was a Spanish citizen I would support a ban for that as well, but I'm not Spanish, so I support a fox hunting ban.

re: Coarse fishing - I don't think this is anywhere near as bad - the fish aren't stressed for hours before hand, nor are they savagely and slowly prodded/scraped/ripped/bashed. I'm no expert and am prepared to be enlightened though. I really can't see the point of it at all - what do the fishers get out of it. "Yes, I'm so smart I can outwit a fish!"

Guy - I know your friend isn't a queer-basher - he wouldn't have a gay friend if he was. The phrashing of my statements weren't meant to imply that at all. But I do have a chip on my shoulder regarding this issue.

The argument regarding a woman joining a mens footy team and vice versa is, once again, pretty pointless if the reasons for why the woman can't join the mens team or the man join the womens team aren't stated.

Let's not flog this woman/man or gay/straight thing to death but what I'm trying to say that if people just say "[A] won't let [B] join their group of [A]s - therefore [A] is discriminating against [B]" BUT NOT GIVE THE REASONS WHY [B] CAN'T JOIN - then the whole thing is pretty pointless.

If people don't give reasons why exclusion is happening then you *can't* say discrimination is happening because you don't really know *what* is happening at all.

Without giving reasons then we can *all* cook up lots of stupid examples of "discrimination" - I'm being discriminated against from sitting next to Tony Blair in the Commons tomorrow if I choose to.

Let me close by saying if your straight friend really wants to join his gay friend's footy team then all he has to do is let the gay friend give him a bj and I think he would qualify...
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:25 AM   #13 (Print)
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Fishing -

I just wonder how long it will be before the animal rights protesters get that banned too.

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Old 11-18-2004, 07:47 AM   #14 (Print)
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I hope you don't mind some comments from the left side of the pond.

Re: Straights on the gay football league. My gay hockey league is mixed, gay, straight, and who knows; men, women, and ... who knows. :-) It's about 1/3 straight. I'm not exactly sure why the straights join a gay team, except maybe convenient scheduling. The point is that who's gay and who ends up being irrelevant. I can never remember who's gay anyways, because it never comes up. We're playing hockey, not dating.

You may wonder, why have a gay league? I want to be in an environment where I feel comfortable, accepted, and able to be honest about who I am. It may not sound like much, but hearing "f*g" all the time and saying "she" not "he" about last weekend's date gets tiring.

http://nycgayhockey.org/

Re: Foxes. Are they at risk for extinction? No? Tear 'em to bits boys! Any way you please.

Oh, and it's soccer. Football is ... Ah! Forget it. You'll never understand.
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:11 AM   #15 (Print)
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I hate to correct you but it is the rest of the world who play football and you guys play "American football" as far as we are concerned.

In the rest of the world we call our sport football and the word soccer is only one in the dictionary and not what we call it in our newspapers or when we talk about it.

Just because you guys call it soccer over there doesn't mean that this is what we call it here. And yes I have been to your country for a total of over 7 months in my life.

You should try travelling to Europe and then you would know that our game is football and not soccer.

Soccer is only the name used for a game played in the USA by those Americans who do not play American Football but like to play Rest of World Football.
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Old 11-18-2004, 08:13 AM   #16 (Print)
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Relax. I was kidding.
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Old 11-18-2004, 09:11 AM   #17 (Print)
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We had some guests staying from Canada last week who said exactly what you said in your post about our game being soccer and only you guys playing football. So its hard for me to be relaxed, especially when I know how few North Americans actually ever leave North America.

But then of course the USA was the only country that did not originally have a country code in its internet domains because it naturally thought that the USA was the world! Need we say more.
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Old 11-18-2004, 09:17 AM   #18 (Print)
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Of course, Great Britain is the only country that doesn't have the country name on its postage stamps, because we invented stamps and used to have an empire.

In fact, the US is the only country that doesn't have its own internet domain, because everybody can help themselves to a .com domain.

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Old 11-18-2004, 09:22 AM   #19 (Print)
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But now the Americans have the empire instead.

Strange thing though that we managed to get the natives in our empire to take up playing our sports (especially Cricket) but the Americans seem to have failed on this.

Or at least I didn't see any American Football being played in the Philippinnes and not heard of this happening in Vietnam or Iraq.

Perhaps you need to be American to understand the point of American Football.
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Old 11-18-2004, 10:40 AM   #20 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Scarlet
But then of course the USA was the only country that did not originally have a country code in its internet domains because it naturally thought that the USA was the world! Need we say more.


Actually we went a stage further and colonised someone else's - UK was the internationally recognised two letter code for the Ukraine - we are GB! Leopards and spots I guess.

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Old 11-18-2004, 10:49 AM   #21 (Print)
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The trouble with American sports is that they require formal equipment and formal pitches. International sports can be played on street corners by anybody. You'll probably find soccer played far more on the streets in America, it just isn't translated to professional sports events. Presumably there aren't enough ad breaks in soccer.

I used to think cricket was boringly slow. It wasn't until I watched a live baseball match that I realised how much slower that was. There was far more action in the crowd, and you were likely to miss the action on the field because you were looking the wrong way.

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Old 11-18-2004, 11:02 AM   #22 (Print)
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I went to one Red Sox game where everyone went home before the end - it was the second of a double header and went into the 13th inning - after midnight. The crowd gave up, went home and watched the end on telly!

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Old 11-18-2004, 11:33 AM   #23 (Print)
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Quote:
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Actually we went a stage further and colonised someone else's - UK was the internationally recognised two letter code for the Ukraine - we are GB! Leopards and spots I guess.


Interesting.

So who has got .gb now or is it simply a resting country code? And what do the Ukraine use now if we nabbed their two letters. Seems a bit of a pity about us not using the .gb though as I always think that United Kingdom is the most bizarre and horrible name for a country. I mean which Kingdom are we talking about exactly - could be anywhere really.

By the way who has the .en for England code then or is that also currently unused?
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:42 AM   #24 (Print)
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I couldn't wait so I found the answer to my own question here:-

http://www.domainregister.us.com/do...hois_server.php

So .gb still belongs to Great Britain. Hooray, where can I go to register my own .gb domain and email straight away.

And neither .en or .ed seem to be assigned to anyone so the forthcoming English Parliament could also make sure we claim those to.

I see the poor old Ukraine had to make do with .ua Still I expect they were poor and impoverished, didn't use the web a lot and were badly in need of uk money at the time.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:47 AM   #25 (Print)
Captain Scarlet
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But then I clicked on the entry and it said "gb is no longer registered with ICANN. Domains registered under uk."

How can I register this country code for myself then? Or do I need to lobby my MP so we get it back.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:51 PM   #26 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Scarlet
But then of course the USA was the only country that did not originally have a country code in its internet domains because it naturally thought that the USA was the world! Need we say more.

Strictly speaking, there has long been a US domain, but it was little used because the rules were rather complicated.

Rather like the way you can not register smith.nom but you can register john.smith.nom, you could not register us domains names at the second level, for example, myname.us. The second level was pre-allocated to geographic regions. These restrictive rules were changed in 2002 >
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/us...-names-born-usa

A long time ago, I did see the gb domain officially used by a British military establishment, but now it is only used by those who create top level domains without official authority.
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Old 11-18-2004, 01:02 PM   #27 (Print)
Captain Scarlet
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Originally posted by pgogborn

A long time ago, I did see the gb domain officially used by a British military establishment, but now it is only used by those who create top level domains without official authority.


And who are these pirates and where can I find one so that I too can have a GB domain?
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:49 PM   #28 (Print)
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Originally posted by sanderton
I went to one Red Sox game ...
Funnily enough, it was a Red Sox game that put me off for life.

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Old 11-18-2004, 05:39 PM   #29 (Print)
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Apologies for pulling this back OT

I see they've just invoked the parliament act and enforced the act for a ban in Feb 2005...

Alex

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Old 11-18-2004, 07:46 PM   #30 (Print)
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Let me close by saying if your straight friend really wants to join his gay friend's footy team then all he has to do is let the gay friend give him a bj and I think he would qualify...


lol made me chuckle...

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