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Old 08-12-2005, 03:05 PM   #331 (Print)
oski87
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Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
It's no distinction at all. The only difference is people who say the State defines rights know that the State defines rights, whereas people who say that the Creator defines rights, and then tell us what the Creator says (without any evidence, of course) are just hiding behind fiction (by fiction, I mean their account of what rights the Creator has assigned us, not the Creator itself). In either case, the determination of which rights we get is made by the State. It's just that in the one case they're honest about it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dswallow
The answer is "the people."

We've got a sufficient history and knowledge of that history about our rights and how they came about and what they mean for us. It's not just that there's words on some paper that say so. It's that a majority of the people consider those words to be very important, too. Thus we as a people would not permit them to be significantly diminished.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Crrink
Ah. Well too bad Jefferson didn't have a smarty pants like you to help him out when he was writing the Declaration of Independence. Wherever he is now, he must be so embarrassed


Rob is absolutely correct here, as is DSwallow, and this is by no means a religious debate (well, it doesnt have to be). The Ten Commandments make it pretty clear that speaking on God's behalf is a big no-no, so I dont see how we lowly mortals can dictate what rights God does and doesnt give to Man. The major world religions- including the many different flavors of christianity- dont really agree on this point.

I think that two things about the Declaration of Independance are worth stating here. The Declaration was, for lack of a better phrase, a "mission statement". It announced our independance from the crown, but did not as such establish a government-- the Constitution did that. The words 'God' and 'Creator' are not found in the constitution. Second, Jefferson, the author of of the Declaration of Independance, was the leading advocate of forming a secular (ie: division of church and state) government.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:27 PM   #332 (Print)
akaye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oski87
Rob is absolutely correct here.


No, He's not.
As for rest of your post:
1. You invoke the Ten Commandments in the same sentence you say we can't know what God wants of us.
2. I've made it clear that the Judeo-Christian concept of God is not the defining aspect of my argument.
3. There was no confusion on any of our parts as to what the Declaration of Independence was.
4. The same Jefferson who's beliefs you cite is the one who acknowledged natural rights in that 'mission statement'. He put that down in the declaration "to place before mankind the common sense of the subject in terms so plain and firm as to command their assent."

You've got a few hours left if you want to try to explain your position.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:59 PM   #333 (Print)
Vito the TiVo
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Frak all of youse!
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:18 PM   #334 (Print)
5thcrewman
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Originally Posted by Anubys
I can't tell if that's Starbuck or Marlon Brando...never noticed the resemblance before...

Huh- That's weird, my old poster of Dirk Benedict looked like this:


What hat? Indeed!

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Old 08-12-2005, 06:20 PM   #335 (Print)
oski87
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Originally Posted by akaye
No, He's not.
As for rest of your post:
1. You invoke the Ten Commandments in the same sentence you say we can't know what God wants of us.
2. I've made it clear that the Judeo-Christian concept of God is not the defining aspect of my argument.
3. There was no confusion on any of our parts as to what the Declaration of Independence was.
4. The same Jefferson who's beliefs you cite is the one who acknowledged natural rights in that 'mission statement'. He put that down in the declaration "to place before mankind the common sense of the subject in terms so plain and firm as to command their assent."

You've got a few hours left if you want to try to explain your position.


Yes, he is, but I'm not going to defend his entire political/philosophical profile based on a posting on a silly message board. States do define rights. Their power to do so comes from the people, but they are the collective peoples instrument for doing so.

1. I'm an atheist, so I wont comment on what god does or does not want of you or anybody else. My point is, those who frame 'rights' as god-given in the context of this arguement always do it under the judeo-christian flag (maybe thats not you, I dont know), hence the brilliantly ironic invocation of the 3rd Commandment.
2. I missed that, but OK. My point wasnt aimed just at you
3. There is a ton of confusion with most people on this point- those that insist on mixing religion into government (didnt say you specifically were) invoke the DOC erroneously as proof the the Founding Fathers wanted a Judeo-Christian State. Thats why my 'mission statement' comment is relevant, and, again, didnt mean to imply that you misunderstood the documents purpose.
4. Yeah, Jefferson does talk about natural rights (or Natural Law), and IMO he is directly referencing the very specific definitions that were in vogue at the time. If you havent already, read Rosseau and definitely Lockes 2nd Treatise.
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Old 08-12-2005, 06:29 PM   #336 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oski87
...4. Yeah, Jefferson does talk about natural rights (or Natural Law), and IMO he is directly referencing the very specific definitions that were in vogue at the time. If you havent already, read Rosseau and definitely Lockes 2nd Treatise.


HEY!! The 'Lost' thread is over there!

Unless..... you're trying to hint that the island in 'Lost' is actually a ship in the ragtag fleet and that explains the hatch and the gooey stuff in the Raider is you-know-who!

Dude, you're reaching.

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Old 08-12-2005, 06:43 PM   #337 (Print)
Crrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oski87
Rob is absolutely correct here, as is DSwallow, and this is by no means a religious debate (well, it doesnt have to be). The Ten Commandments make it pretty clear that speaking on God's behalf is a big no-no, so I dont see how we lowly mortals can dictate what rights God does and doesnt give to Man. The major world religions- including the many different flavors of christianity- dont really agree on this point.

I think that two things about the Declaration of Independance are worth stating here. The Declaration was, for lack of a better phrase, a "mission statement". It announced our independance from the crown, but did not as such establish a government-- the Constitution did that. The words 'God' and 'Creator' are not found in the constitution. Second, Jefferson, the author of of the Declaration of Independance, was the leading advocate of forming a secular (ie: division of church and state) government.

Ah, the old, "Jefferson was serious about the things he said and did that I agree with, but not at all serious about the things that you agree with" argument.
Sorry, doesn't hold a drop of water.

Jefferson was not the only Founding Father, I wonder how well versed you are in the beliefs of the others?

And, com on now, if Jefferson was, as you say, "the leading advocate of forming a secular (ie: division of church and state) government" then please explain why the very foundation of the D of I rests in the inalienable rights granted by The Creator.
Pretty please.
Again, too bad he didn't have smart guys like both you and Rob around to point out the glaring flaw to him - might've saved a whole lot of debate on the subject over the last 230 years, not to mention the gross embarrassment he must now be feeling!

Oh, and by the way, the words 'separation of church and state' aren't found in the Constitution either. What do you make of that? Somehow I am guessing it's less significant to you than the absence of 'The Creator.'
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Old 08-12-2005, 07:01 PM   #338 (Print)
oski87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crrink
Ah, the old, "Jefferson was serious about the things he said and did that I agree with, but not at all serious about the things that you agree with" argument.
Sorry, doesn't hold a drop of water.

Jefferson was not the only Founding Father, I wonder how well versed you are in the beliefs of the others?

And, com on now, if Jefferson was, as you say, "the leading advocate of forming a secular (ie: division of church and state) government" then please explain why the very foundation of the D of I rests in the inalienable rights granted by The Creator.
Pretty please.
Again, too bad he didn't have smart guys like both you and Rob around to point out the glaring flaw to him - might've saved a whole lot of debate on the subject over the last 230 years, not to mention the gross embarrassment he must now be feeling!

Oh, and by the way, the words 'separation of church and state' aren't found in the Constitution either. What do you make of that? Somehow I am guessing it's less significant to you than the absence of 'The Creator.'



I dont agree with everything Jefferson said. Not even close. He WAS the leading advocate of church/state seperation-- if I had the time I'd cite some documents and provide links. For starters read the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom as written by Jefferson, not as passed. Readily available, I'm certain, as the original is often cited as one of Jeffersons most important writings.

Belief in God (and there are some very interesting writings on Jeffersons beliefs specifically) does NOT equal belief in religious government, and a belief in God-given rights does not mean God-administered rights by any stretch of the imagination. Jefferson said as much many times.

Your third sentance really makes my point. The Declaration of Independance was just that. A Declaration. Drawing a line in the sand. A middle finger pointed at the throne. It did not create our government. Terms like "from the creator" and such were pretty much colloquialisms at the time, and common in writings without religious import.

Jefferson was the most influential of the founding fathers as far as the form our government took. I dont think there are many that would debate that point. I am not As well versed in the writings of the rest. They didnt leave as much behind as JEfferson did, and werent as significant. They were important, obviously, and brave beyond what anyone writing here (me included) could dream of being, but as far as CREATING what the United States would become, Jefferson was the man.

Jefferson STARTED the conversation on Church/State seperation!
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:12 AM   #339 (Print)
Crrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oski87
I dont agree with everything Jefferson said. Not even close. He WAS the leading advocate of church/state seperation-- if I had the time I'd cite some documents and provide links. For starters read the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom as written by Jefferson, not as passed. Readily available, I'm certain, as the original is often cited as one of Jeffersons most important writings.

Belief in God (and there are some very interesting writings on Jeffersons beliefs specifically) does NOT equal belief in religious government, and a belief in God-given rights does not mean God-administered rights by any stretch of the imagination. Jefferson said as much many times.

Your third sentance really makes my point. The Declaration of Independance was just that. A Declaration. Drawing a line in the sand. A middle finger pointed at the throne. It did not create our government. Terms like "from the creator" and such were pretty much colloquialisms at the time, and common in writings without religious import.

Jefferson was the most influential of the founding fathers as far as the form our government took. I dont think there are many that would debate that point. I am not As well versed in the writings of the rest. They didnt leave as much behind as JEfferson did, and werent as significant. They were important, obviously, and brave beyond what anyone writing here (me included) could dream of being, but as far as CREATING what the United States would become, Jefferson was the man.

Jefferson STARTED the conversation on Church/State seperation!


Jefferson was not using metaphor nor colloquialism when he crafted the D of I, and no kidding God given rights do not equal God-administered rights - nobody has asserted that in this thread...at least not that I've seen. None of the Founding Fathers expected God Almighty to come on down from on high and tell us how to run our country, but none of them wanted, desired, nor crafted a government that would be opposed to any religious expression the way many today believe our government should be. You can tell yourself that it's an anachronism of their time, but you'd be quite wrong.

In any event, this thread has degenerated from topics that are tangentially related to the situation in BSG to a general chat on the basis of American governance. To get back to my original point, and I hope to bring the discussion to a close, the idea that Americans believe that their rights are inalienable, and that they flow from a power much higher and more inviolable than The State is part of what makes us so unique in the world today. I think it's a good thing. If you don't, well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:35 AM   #340 (Print)
oski87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crrink
Jefferson was not using metaphor nor colloquialism when he crafted the D of I, and no kidding God given rights do not equal God-administered rights - nobody has asserted that in this thread...at least not that I've seen. None of the Founding Fathers expected God Almighty to come on down from on high and tell us how to run our country, but none of them wanted, desired, nor crafted a government that would be opposed to any religious expression the way many today believe our government should be. You can tell yourself that it's an anachronism of their time, but you'd be quite wrong.

In any event, this thread has degenerated from topics that are tangentially related to the situation in BSG to a general chat on the basis of American governance. To get back to my original point, and I hope to bring the discussion to a close, the idea that Americans believe that their rights are inalienable, and that they flow from a power much higher and more inviolable than The State is part of what makes us so unique in the world today. I think it's a good thing. If you don't, well, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.


I offered hard facts with documentation and you responded with unsubstantiated opinion. I'm done
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Old 08-13-2005, 10:28 AM   #341 (Print)
Crrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oski87
I offered hard facts with documentation and you responded with unsubstantiated opinion. I'm done

LOL
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Old 08-13-2005, 04:05 PM   #342 (Print)
oski87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crrink
LOL


My thoughts exactly...
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:47 PM   #343 (Print)
Crrink
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I thought you were done?
I LOL'd because you claimed to be offering 'hard facts with documentation' when you did nothing of the sort. You disparaged me for responding with 'unsubstantiated opinion' when that's exactly what you did in your post (and all your posts on the subject).

The only thing in the way of documentation you offered was your blurb about the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom. The version that passed - i.e. the version that Jefferson was so proud of that he asked to have reference to it made on his headstone - begins, "Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free...."

The only draft version I could find on Google made my point much more strongly. The first sentence begins,
"Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their minds; that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments, or burthens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone;...."

So, if you care to, if you're not done now, why don't you explain exactly how the Virginia Statute shows that Jefferson made a boo boo when he credited our inalienable Rights to "The Creator" in the D of I.
I can't wait for the response!
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Old 08-14-2005, 02:29 AM   #344 (Print)
oski87
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Originally Posted by Crrink
I thought you were done?
I LOL'd because you claimed to be offering 'hard facts with documentation' when you did beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure

So, if you care to, if you're not done now, why don't you explain exactly how the Virginia Statute shows that Jefferson made a boo boo when he credited our inalienable Rights to "The Creator" in the D of I.
I can't wait for the response!


Congratulations on your ability to google and to cut and paste. Bet I could find the website that you cribbed your commentary from if it were worth the trouble.

First off, I cited three sources. Locke is a dull read, and both Locke and Rousseau are too long to 'learn' by a quick google (full disclosure- I haven't read either in 10 years).

Jefferson speaks for himself. The whole document is about free will. Yes, partially religious freedom- everyone knows how important tat was to the founding fathers.

Just read the damn document-ALL of it- and don't just count the God references. Seriously-put it in context.

I am done. Not gonna invest more time in this sort of debate on a freakin' TV board

Last edited by oski87 : 08-14-2005 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 08-14-2005, 12:01 PM   #345 (Print)
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Originally Posted by oski87
Congratulations on your ability to google and to cut and paste. Bet I could find the website that you cribbed your commentary from if it were worth the trouble.

First off, I cited three sources. Locke is a dull read, and both Locke and Rousseau are too long to 'learn' by a quick google (full disclosure- I haven't read either in 10 years).

Jefferson speaks for himself. The whole document is about free will. Yes, partially religious freedom- everyone knows how important tat was to the founding fathers.

Just read the damn document-ALL of it- and don't just count the God references. Seriously-put it in context.

I am done. Not gonna invest more time in this sort of debate on a freakin' TV board

Neither Locke nor Rousseau were involved in forming the US, so those sources don't count for anything. Why would you use the names of two philosophers as 'hard facts' to counter the argument that Jefferson purposely attributed man's inalienable rights as being God given? Why wouldn't you just use Jefferson's own words...oh, wait, I think I know why....

I did read the whole document - it's not very long. If you think parts of it contradict the parts I cut and pasted, please point them out to me. I'm either missing the contradictory parts, or they aren't there.

I don't understand your comment about free will - free will has nothing to do with the argument at hand. The idea of free will is a cornerstone of Christianity, and it's very popular with pretty much all westerners, religious and non-religious alike. Even the Calvinists believed we had free will, they just thought that our outcomes were predetermined. How we reached that inevitable conclusion was entirely under our own control - for whatever that would be worth.
So, why bring up free will? I don't see how that 'hard fact' bolsters your argument at all.

Finally, how small of you to attribute my arguments to someone other than me, especially without any proof. Your assertion is both untrue and ridiculous. You apparently can't argue the facts with me, so you have erected a straw man to tear down. I see through your very weak ploy, and it explains a lot.
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:03 PM   #346 (Print)
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Wow. This has been such great fun that I feel compelled to unsubscribe from this thread. Enjoy the battle that will never end because neither are willing to give up bragging rights for having had the last word. In my opinion, the winner of this debate will be the one who ceases to bite the other's bait.

Enjoy.
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:04 PM   #347 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJO1966
Wow. This has been such great fun that I feel compelled to unsubscribe from this thread. Enjoy the battle that will never end because neither are willing to give up bragging rights for having had the last word. In my opinion, the winner of this debate will be the one who ceases to bite the other's bait.

Enjoy.








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Old 08-14-2005, 01:33 PM   #348 (Print)
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Originally Posted by PJO1966
Wow. This has been such great fun that I feel compelled to unsubscribe from this thread. Enjoy the battle that will never end because neither are willing to give up bragging rights for having had the last word. In my opinion, the winner of this debate will be the one who ceases to bite the other's bait.

Enjoy.

What's amazing to me is that even though we now have more important things to talk about (i.e., this week's BG episode), this meaningless debate continues!

C'mon, guys! Boomer's back! Starbuck's back! Adama's back! Can't we concentrate on things that really matter?!?

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Old 08-14-2005, 01:41 PM   #349 (Print)
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Originally Posted by PJO1966
Wow. This has been such great fun that I feel compelled to unsubscribe from this thread. Enjoy the battle that will never end because neither are willing to give up bragging rights for having had the last word. In my opinion, the winner of this debate will be the one who ceases to bite the other's bait.

Enjoy.

I'm not offering anything as 'bait.' If he has a defensible point, I'd like to understand it. I'm sorry my using a public thread to determine this has become a hardship to you, but I did think that some people might find these discussions interesting, even if they are off topic.
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Old 08-14-2005, 01:43 PM   #350 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJO1966
Wow. This has been such great fun that I feel compelled to unsubscribe from this thread. Enjoy the battle that will never end because neither are willing to give up bragging rights for having had the last word. In my opinion, the winner of this debate will be the one who ceases to bite the other's bait.

Enjoy.


Good idea! I am now unsubscribing too! On to this week's thread!

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Old 08-14-2005, 05:57 PM   #351 (Print)
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Rosseau was a reference to something specific and relevant-the prevalent definition of 'natural law' and 'natural rights' of the era. As for Locke, well saying he had nothing to do with forming the US govt is proof positive you have not read him. I mean, he wasn't in the room, but, well, he was in the room in a big way.

Never called your views small. Made references to the views of others, often specifically stating that I didn't know or assume they were your views. Thought it would have been redundant to state this on every point.Apologies for any confusion I created on this point.
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