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Old 08-10-2005, 08:31 PM   #271 (Print)
Anubys
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The thing I love about your new .sig is that anybody who knows us knows there HAS to be more to it than that!


I never let facts get in the way of a good story

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Old 08-10-2005, 09:01 PM   #272 (Print)
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I never let facts get in the way of a good story

Hey, you should be a politician. You've certainly got the technique down!

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Old 08-11-2005, 01:07 AM   #273 (Print)
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:59 AM   #274 (Print)
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Plus slightly longer before the bill of rights was added (which could fairly easily be defined as providing liberty).

.



Whoa! I can't believe this got by me! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! Don't EVER let ANYONE TELL YOU that the bill of rights PROVIDES any liberty! We HAVE THOSE RIGHTS! We HAVE THEM because we are humans living in a free society. They are OURS. We wrote the bill of rights to PROTECT THOSE RIGHTS IN LAW, to explicitly limit what our government can do.

The 1st Amendment does not say "You have freedoms of speech and religion." It says "The Government can't make a law to TAKE AWAY our freedom of speech and religon." The 2nd doesn't say "You have a right to keep and bear arms." It says "THE RIGHT to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Our rights are not things that were given to us by our gvernement, and can therefore be taken away. They are ours and CANNOT be taken away, and we wrote the bill of writes to make sure that was clear to our future leaders.

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Old 08-11-2005, 08:25 AM   #275 (Print)
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We're obviously meant to think that she may be a Cylon but I'm not swallowing the bait as it's too obvious.

I think what's going to happen is she's going to *not* be a Cyclon but she'll get busted for her manipulations and whatnot and will be *accused* of being a Cylon; maybe even tossed out the airlock (either literally or figuratively).

Maybe maybe she'll get tossed out of the airlock and we *won't* know for sure one way or the other whether it was justified. Tigh losing his wife to such a witchhunt could would be an interesting story arc.


Oooh, I like that idea!

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Old 08-11-2005, 09:49 AM   #276 (Print)
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Originally Posted by akaye
Whoa! I can't believe this got by me! WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!! Don't EVER let ANYONE TELL YOU that the bill of rights PROVIDES any liberty! We HAVE THOSE RIGHTS! We HAVE THEM because we are humans living in a free society. They are OURS. We wrote the bill of rights to PROTECT THOSE RIGHTS IN LAW, to explicitly limit what our government can do.

The 1st Amendment does not say "You have freedoms of speech and religion." It says "The Government can't make a law to TAKE AWAY our freedom of speech and religon." The 2nd doesn't say "You have a right to keep and bear arms." It says "THE RIGHT to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." Our rights are not things that were given to us by our gvernement, and can therefore be taken away. They are ours and CANNOT be taken away, and we wrote the bill of writes to make sure that was clear to our future leaders.

AK
Excellent point. Shouldn't have tried streaching for that last argument

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Old 08-11-2005, 09:59 AM   #277 (Print)
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Excellent point. Shouldn't have tried stretching for that last argument

Well, if were such a good point, then why do people have different rights depending upon which country they live in, or even which state?

No, we have the rights that we as a society, through our government, decide we have. There's nothing "natural" about rights.

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Old 08-11-2005, 10:20 AM   #278 (Print)
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No, we have the rights that we as a society, through our government, decide we have.


And that's precisely why the Federalist fought hard to have the Bill of Rights added to the Constitution. The Constitution chose not to restrict these rights, but there was nothing to force the government to change that... Here we are 200 years later, and the Bill of Rights is STILL being invoked to keep the government from enacting legislation that intends to erode some of those rights.

Wow... got a bit off-topic...
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:42 AM   #279 (Print)
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/sticks head in to see if we're discussing hot cylons...

no?...still on government...ah, crap...is it Friday yet?

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Old 08-11-2005, 11:35 AM   #280 (Print)
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Is there anything in the Constitution restricting our rights to our own copies of Boomer and Six?
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:52 AM   #281 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
Well, if were such a good point, then why do people have different rights depending upon which country they live in, or even which state?

No, we have the rights that we as a society, through our government, decide we have. There's nothing "natural" about rights.


OK, I'l take his to a different thread if you want to continue, but in answer to your question, one of he reasons why the US is the greatest country in the world is because we acknowledged those rights and protected them with the highest law in the land, which no leader or administration can violate. No US state can make a law that voiates the Constitution of the US. In theory.
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Old 08-11-2005, 11:53 AM   #282 (Print)
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Originally Posted by tbone526
Is there anything in the Constitution restricting our rights to our own copies of Boomer and Six?


No, and I'm drafting an amendment to ensure we can each have one:

"Congress shall pass no law infringing on our right keep bare cylon cuties."
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:06 PM   #283 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
Well, if were such a good point, then why do people have different rights depending upon which country they live in, or even which state?

No, we have the rights that we as a society, through our government, decide we have. There's nothing "natural" about rights.


OK, I'll jump in with my somewhat limited knowledge; I'm not quite as learned in these things, so I may be wrong...

But I thought that the framers (at least for here in the USA) did consider rights to be natural. Our written documents just acknowlege and affirm and enable protection of them. The Declaration of Independence, it seems, reveals this opinion where it says

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

But in practical terms, rights do become defined by government, in that they are the entity choosing which rights to acknowledge or not. How does this fit into the discussion?...I'm not even sure...

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Old 08-11-2005, 12:10 PM   #284 (Print)
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No, and I'm drafting an amendment to ensure we can each have one:

"Congress shall pass no law infringing on our right keep bare cylon cuties."


I'd vote for you if you ran on that platform!

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Old 08-11-2005, 12:32 PM   #285 (Print)
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But in practical terms, rights do become defined by government, in that they are the entity choosing which rights to acknowledge or not. How does this fit into the discussion?...I'm not even sure...


It probably doesn't, but I feel it's important enough to comment on when it comes up. I think the important thing is that we keep in the forefront of our minds that ours is a government of the people, by the people and for the people. We choose what powers our governement has and what it can and can't do. It's important to use language that keeps that idea paramount, lest we slide down that famous slipperly slope. Power corrupts, so it's best to constantly remind those in power about where there power comes from and why they have it.

I'm sure we can tie this in to BSG's situation if we try, but, after tomorrow, it won't matter...this thread will die before the credits finish rolling. Just like the last one...no one even commented on my Horatio Hornblower post.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:02 PM   #286 (Print)
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Just like the last one...no one even commented on my Horatio Hornblower post.


Hmmm....Horatio Horblower....hot Cylon babeness.....Horatio.....hot Cylons.....Boomer.....Horatio?......Cylon yumminess.... mmmmmm......

The choice really is obvious. Let Boomer decide what rights we have as a society!

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Old 08-11-2005, 01:19 PM   #287 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Big_Daddy
Hmmm....Horatio Horblower....hot Cylon babeness.....Horatio.....hot Cylons.....Boomer.....Horatio?......Cylon yumminess.... mmmmmm......

The choice really is obvious. Let Boomer decide what rights we have as a society!


Hey!
"If she were president, she'd be Babe-raham Lincoln."
"She's a Robo-Babe." -- Wayne and Garth, obviously Boomer fans.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:23 PM   #288 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Big_Daddy
Hmmm....Horatio Horblower....hot Cylon babeness.....Horatio.....hot Cylons.....Boomer.....Horatio?......Cylon yumminess.... mmmmmm......

The choice really is obvious. Let Boomer decide what rights we have as a society!


And let Bondage Boomer punish us when we violate those rights!

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Old 08-11-2005, 01:35 PM   #289 (Print)
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Well, if were such a good point, then why do people have different rights depending upon which country they live in, or even which state?

No, we have the rights that we as a society, through our government, decide we have. There's nothing "natural" about rights.

You just identified one of the most wonderful things about America without realizing it.

Most other nations seek to place The State in the position the Declaration of Independece places The Creator. This places the people's rights at the complete discretion of The State - to be given and taken away whenever and however the State decides.
In America our rights are identified as being inalienable, and though laws, wars, and popular movements tend to influence our freedoms all the time, it remains an important distinction in my opinion.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:58 PM   #290 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Crrink
You just identified one of the most wonderful things about America without realizing it.

Most other nations seek to place The State in the position the Declaration of Independece places The Creator. This places the people's rights at the complete discretion of The State - to be given and taken away whenever and however the State decides.
In America our rights are identified as being inalienable, and though laws, wars, and popular movements tend to influence our freedoms all the time, it remains an important distinction in my opinion.

It's no distinction at all. The only difference is people who say the State defines rights know that the State defines rights, whereas people who say that the Creator defines rights, and then tell us what the Creator says (without any evidence, of course) are just hiding behind fiction (by fiction, I mean their account of what rights the Creator has assigned us, not the Creator itself). In either case, the determination of which rights we get is made by the State. It's just that in the one case they're honest about it.

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:01 PM   #291 (Print)
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It's no distinction at all. The only difference is people who say the State defines rights know that the State defines rights, whereas people who say that the Creator defines rights, and then tell us what the Creator says (without any evidence, of course) are just hiding behind fiction (by fiction, I mean their account of what rights the Creator has assigned us, not the Creator itself). In either case, the determination of which rights we get is made by the State. It's just that in the one case they're honest about it.

Ah. Well too bad Jefferson didn't have a smarty pants like you to help him out when he was writing the Declaration of Independence. Wherever he is now, he must be so embarrassed
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:06 PM   #292 (Print)
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It's no distinction at all.


NEVER VOTE FOR THIS MAN
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:15 PM   #293 (Print)
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My, that was useful.

Why don't you share exactly what the distinction is?

That is, where do American rights come from? What determines exactly what they are?

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:30 PM   #294 (Print)
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My, that was useful.

Why don't you share exactly what the distinction is?

That is, where do American rights come from? What determines exactly what they are?


You're serious? The distiction is that through their vote and representives, the people make the laws and decide, based on their beliefs, what they are entiled to and what restrictions they are willing to bear. If people are fed the line that The State tells them what they are allowed to do and that they have freedom only at the pleasure of The State, they start to believe it. They become sheep who passively follow whereever they are led and abdicate responsibility for their own actions and the direction of their society to people who know better, but feed them that line to increase their own power and control over others.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:49 PM   #295 (Print)
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You're serious? The distiction is that through their vote and representives, the people make the laws and decide, based on their beliefs, what they are entiled to and what restrictions they are willing to bear. If people are fed the line that The State tells them what they are allowed to do and that they have freedom only at the pleasure of The State, they start to believe it. They become sheep who passively follow whereever they are led and abdicate responsibility for their own actions and the direction of their society to people who know better, but feed them that line to increase their own power and control over others.

The answer is "the people."

We've got a sufficient history and knowledge of that history about our rights and how they came about and what they mean for us. It's not just that there's words on some paper that say so. It's that a majority of the people consider those words to be very important, too. Thus we as a people would not permit them to be significantly diminished.

If, as a society, we ignored that, anything would be possible. If we permitted the military to just take over the government at gunpoint, the military could do so. As a people, we're not accustomed to the military doing that, and as a people we're somewhat (understatement) opposed to the military being able to do that. Thus it cannot happen; there'd be a tremendous outcry leading to civil war if it were ever attempted.

In some other countries it's practically an annual event.

As a people we have some faith in the system of laws we live under, and that keeps everyone working within that system of laws.

That's why it works.

If ever such a time came where most people no longer cared, then anything could happen.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:55 PM   #296 (Print)
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You're serious? The distiction is that through their vote and representives, the people make the laws and decide, based on their beliefs, what they are entiled to and what restrictions they are willing to bear. If people are fed the line that The State tells them what they are allowed to do and that they have freedom only at the pleasure of The State, they start to believe it. They become sheep who passively follow whereever they are led and abdicate responsibility for their own actions and the direction of their society to people who know better, but feed them that line to increase their own power and control over others.

So now you've moved from the concept of "natural rights" to "whatever the people decide are their rights." But if our "rights" can be changed at the whim of "the people," then there's nothing "natrual" about them.

So--are you formally rejecting the idea that American rights are somehow "natural" for the idea that they were created by "the people"?

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Old 08-11-2005, 03:03 PM   #297 (Print)
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So now you've moved from the concept of "natural rights" to "whatever the people decide are their rights." But if our "rights" can be changed at the whim of "the people," then there's nothing "natrual" about them.

So--are you formally rejecting the idea that American rights are somehow "natural" for the idea that they were created by "the people"?

I don't mean to speak for akaye, but when speaking of natural rights Jefferson wasn't creating them, he was recognizing them. To him our natural rights are more analogous to the law of gravity than they are to the speed limit on a given road.

Boundaries to liberty are drawn, yes, and they do move, but they do so with the consent of the people, and they ostensibly are done to improve the lives of the people. Now, naturally, you can identify dozens if not hundreds of examples of American governments acting more like the State is the grantor of all rights, but it's not a principle we accept, even if it is sometimes a reality we tolerate.

It's a fundamental philosophical difference, and like I said earlier, a very important one.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:21 PM   #298 (Print)
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So now you've moved from the concept of "natural rights" to "whatever the people decide are their rights." But if our "rights" can be changed at the whim of "the people," then there's nothing "natrual" about them.

So--are you formally rejecting the idea that American rights are somehow "natural" for the idea that they were created by "the people"?


OK, now I really think you're just teasing us "to place before mankind the common sense of the subject in terms so plain and firm as to command their assent."

Abe and Bob and Carol are talking. Abe says "I believe I have an inalienable right to freedom of religion. Whatever's inside me that tells me right from wrong...My internal moral compass, my conscience, my God...tells me this is true. "
Bob says "Yes, my sense of right and wrong tells me the same thing."
Carol say "No, my prince of royal blood tells me how to worship and he tells me that I must kill whoever disagrees to ensure our place in heaven."

Abe and Bob steal some land from some indiginous people, write up some laws so that they and a few hundred million of their friends can live in a society that respects their beliefs and they build walls guarded by men with guns to keep Carol out. If enough of the people who Carol's prince is trying to kill ask for help, Abe and Bob will probably send some of the men with guns down from the wall to depose the prince and lock Carol up in a carribean detention faciity where she can't hurt anyone else.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:28 PM   #299 (Print)
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That Carol. What a beyotch.

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Old 08-11-2005, 03:29 PM   #300 (Print)
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OK, so now you're agreeing with my original contention that "rights" are culturally determined, not "natural."

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