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Old 08-11-2005, 11:23 AM   #31 (Print)
classicsat
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It's not the guide data part of the services, it is enabling recording that would be theft of services, since recording is part of the paid service on most.

IMO there would be nothing wrong with feeding alternative guide data to a TiVo that has a paid sub, except where it would be used with a cable/satellite theft box that TiVo doesn't provide guide data for "correctly".

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Old 08-11-2005, 12:39 PM   #32 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicsat
It's not the guide data part of the services, it is enabling recording that would be theft of services, since recording is part of the paid service on most.

IMO there would be nothing wrong with feeding alternative guide data to a TiVo that has a paid sub, except where it would be used with a cable/satellite theft box that TiVo doesn't provide guide data for "correctly".


If you are saying that the TiVo software can't be used to record shows without a sub I wouldn't like it, but could see where you are coming from. Essentially TiVo would be leasing the software to you. However if you said I couldn't replace the OS to record with the box I'd have a problem since the hardware belongs to me.

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Old 08-11-2005, 01:54 PM   #33 (Print)
jgrade
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Not one to get involved in a good argument, but I think maybe the Cell phone analogy may apply here. The Cell providers (Verizon, Cingular, Etc.) all offer equipment at a greatly reduced price or even free in exchange for a service commitment. This commitment is in writing and if you break the commitment, then you are penalized. TiVo is saying the same thing by selling TiVo branded DVR's at a reduced price with the explicit agreement that the only way to make it function (just like a cell phone) is to subscribe to their service. Again, just like a cell phone, even if you paid 50 bucks for a phone that costs 400 and end your service you have a great paperweight. Unlike the Cell providers, TiVo is saying that you cannot ever completely own the equipment and use it any way you want. If they did, they would make new customers sign a commitment that would have penalties upon early termination. I donít agree with this policy but I have no choice if I want to own a TiVo and not break the rules.

As it is, I have a new R10 that required a 2 year commitment or I pay 150. Sounds familiar. IMHO
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:07 PM   #34 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgrade
Not one to get involved in a good argument, but I think maybe the Cell phone analogy may apply here. The Cell providers (Verizon, Cingular, Etc.) all offer equipment at a greatly reduced price or even free in exchange for a service commitment. This commitment is in writing and if you break the commitment, then you are penalized. TiVo is saying the same thing by selling TiVo branded DVR's at a reduced price with the explicit agreement that the only way to make it function (just like a cell phone) is to subscribe to their service. Again, just like a cell phone, even if you paid 50 bucks for a phone that costs 400 and end your service you have a great paperweight. Unlike the Cell providers, TiVo is saying that you cannot ever completely own the equipment and use it any way you want. If they did, they would make new customers sign a commitment that would have penalties upon early termination. I donít agree with this policy but I have no choice if I want to own a TiVo and not break the rules.

As it is, I have a new R10 that required a 2 year commitment or I pay 150. Sounds familiar. IMHO


I hear you and understand. However with a cell phone you have to be authenticated on the providers network in order for most phones to work. That is not the case with TiVo if you replace the OS and it never tries to connect for updates, guide data, or anything that would require a sub.

Using your analogy with cell phones, if I had a phone and was able to tune it in a way that allowed direct phone to phone communications within a short distance that should be ok, provided I don't violate any FCC regs of course.

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:19 PM   #35 (Print)
jgrade
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It would be OK assuming you completed your previous agreement with the company that sold you the hardware at a reduced price. If you bought the phone with a 2 year service agreement and canceled early then you would pay a penalty. If you completed the agreement then the Cell Company feels that they have made up the difference in the price and the hardware is yours free and clear. TiVo apparently does not feel that way. There is no early termination clause and you can never own the equipment (at least in 100% working order) without having a subscription.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:30 PM   #36 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgrade
It would be OK assuming you completed your previous agreement with the company that sold you the hardware at a reduced price. If you bought the phone with a 2 year service agreement and canceled early then you would pay a penalty. If you completed the agreement then the Cell Company feels that they have made up the difference in the price and the hardware is yours free and clear. TiVo apparently does not feel that way. There is no early termination clause and you can never own the equipment (at least in 100% working order) without having a subscription.


I disagree. I didn't sign a contract with TiVo nor make any committment other than an agreement that as long as I use their service I will pay a monthly fee, however outrageous it is. The hardware is mine, I can take it apart and use the components inside, make it a boat anchor, or through in the trash with no repercussions from TiVo.

There may be others that signed up that way, but my only agreement was a 30 day use of the TiVo service before being eligiable for the rebate.

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:32 PM   #37 (Print)
the_scotsman
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How can I not own it? Tivo does not pay for repairs or replacements!

I paid for and own the hardware, Tivo provides the service. If I chose to trash it, I can! If I chose to remove the HDD and install elsewhere, I can! If I want to use it as Linux box, I can!

Paul

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:36 PM   #38 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_scotsman
How can I not own it? Tivo does not pay for repairs or replacements!

I paid for and own the hardware, Tivo provides the service. If I chose to trash it, I can! If I chose to remove the HDD and install elsewhere, I can! If I want to use it as Linux box, I can!

Paul


What he said. Double.

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:47 PM   #39 (Print)
jgrade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_scotsman
How can I not own it? Tivo does not pay for repairs or replacements!

I paid for and own the hardware, Tivo provides the service. If I chose to trash it, I can! If I chose to remove the HDD and install elsewhere, I can! If I want to use it as Linux box, I can!

Paul



Hey I agree with you. Don't take what I said wrong. TiVo is saying if you want the hardware you bought to function the way it was meant to work I.E. record video streams, then you need to subscribe. If you want to by a box of partially proprietary hardware and tear it apart then go for it.
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Old 08-13-2005, 11:54 AM   #40 (Print)
darkcyber
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I agree and disagree somewhat. The cell phone thing is not a good comparison. When you get a cell phone at a reduced price you sign an agreement that you will keep that service for x amount of time or you will have to pay a penalty for canceling the servie early. Even if you cancel early, the cell phone is still yours and you can take it and use it on another service (provided it would work on one) or you can trash it or whatever...the cell phone belongs to you. It became yours when you signed that agreement. Because you are paying for it for those x amount of years of service or that fat lump sum payment if you cancel early. Either way, the cell phone is yours. Now if you find a way to make that cell phone work and get service without paying for it...THAT IS THEFT OF SERVICE!

When you buy a Tivo box, you purchase the box and it is yours 100% free and clear. No more strings attached. The only string attached when I purchased mine was I had to keep the service for 30 days also if I wanted to get my $100.00 rebate. After that 30 days there is no more commitment for my part I can cancel at anytime and the box is 100% mine.

When you pay for a monthly or lifetime subscription, you are pay for SERVICE ONLY. If you chose not to receive that service any longer and stop subbing, then that piece of hardware is still 100% yours free and clear...you paid for it and bought it. Now if you find some way to receive Tivo's guides and stuff without paying for it...THEN THAT IS THEFT OF SERVICE! Merely replacing the OS (if you could...I don't know) and making it some kind of dumb DVR to record with IS NOT THEFT OF SERVICE IN ANYWAY!

But if you want to wipe the hd and install Windows 98 on it...that doesn't violate anything to do with Tivo and you're not stealing anything.

This is like saying you purchased your own water meter and decided to cancel your city water and use your own meter on a new well you had dug. It's kinda of stupid to say your stealing service by using your own water meter on your own well. The only way it would be stealing service is if you somehow connected that meter back up to the city water feed without paying for it...then you would be stealing.

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Last edited by darkcyber : 08-13-2005 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:13 PM   #41 (Print)
classicsat
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It is almost the the same, as the "contract" is somewhat implicit. Basically you bought the box with the expectation if you wanted to record with it, you'd sub to the service.

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