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Old 12-15-2004, 07:17 AM   #121 (Print)
jones07
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:27 AM   #122 (Print)
cwoody222
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Huh?

Your Comcast DVR won't let you transfer recordings to your PC.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:37 AM   #123 (Print)
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OH! That's actually a good question.

I don't believe there'll be any restriction to how long you can keep files while you subscribe to TiVo but I wonder what happens after you drop service.

My GUESS is that you would NOT be able to play TiVo content unless you are a current TiVo subscriber in good standing. You'll have to use TiVo software to play the files and they won't want you using their software if you're not their customer.

Burning to DVD will most likely be playable forever.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:40 AM   #124 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cwoody222
OH! That's actually a good question.

I don't believe there'll be any restriction to how long you can keep files while you subscribe to TiVo but I wonder what happens after you drop service.

My GUESS is that you would NOT be able to play TiVo content unless you are a current TiVo subscriber in good standing. You'll have to use TiVo software to play the files and they won't want you using their software if you're not their customer.

Burning to DVD will most likely be playable forever.


Burning to DVD, of course, then leads into the question: can the be ripped using DeCSS and other such software? (assuming that they're protected as such). If so, then they can be decrypted, and shared, which is exactly what has everyone concerned. It'll be interesting to see how everyone works around this...

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Old 12-15-2004, 09:48 AM   #125 (Print)
samkuhn
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Burning to DVD, of course, then leads into the question: can the be ripped using DeCSS and other such software? (assuming that they're protected as such). If so, then they can be decrypted, and shared, which is exactly what has everyone concerned. It'll be interesting to see how everyone works around this...


certainly the DVDs can be reripped, since to be compatible with standard DVD players, they have to adhere to said standards. All available consumer electronics DVD encryption has been cracked thanks to DeCSS and the like.

That said, my understanding is that certain portions of the encryption used for CSS are written in areas of the DVD that are unwritable by DVDR/RW devices available to joe public. That would seem to indicate that the TTG shows will be recorded without encryption.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:50 AM   #126 (Print)
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If store-bought DVD's can be ripped and decrypted and shared (via illegal? hacking) I'm sure TiVo's will be able to do the same with a little hard work and hacking.
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Old 12-15-2004, 09:51 AM   #127 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by samkuhn
certainly the DVDs can be reripped, since to be compatible with standard DVD players, they have to adhere to said standards. All available consumer electronics DVD encryption has been cracked thanks to DeCSS and the like.

That said, my understanding is that certain portions of the encryption used for CSS are written in areas of the DVD that are unwritable by DVDR/RW devices available to joe public. That would seem to indicate that the TTG shows will be recorded without encryption.



Here's another question, then. I'm not sure what IS possible, and what is just fantasy. However, since there is a specific key required to burn shows, which also mandates the use of a specific authoring program. Is it possible to embed the key in the authored program? That way, if the program is ultimated shared on Kazaa or what not, it could be traced back to the original owner?

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Old 12-15-2004, 10:15 AM   #128 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Okeemike
Burning to DVD, of course, then leads into the question: can the be ripped using DeCSS and other such software? (assuming that they're protected as such). If so, then they can be decrypted, and shared, which is exactly what has everyone concerned. It'll be interesting to see how everyone works around this...


You won't need DeCSS or similar -- consumer DVD recorders can't write to the portion of the disc that stores some of the CSS information (that's why a direct disc-to-disc copy won't work on a CSS-encrypted disc without DeCSS.) If the DVDs that will be written are standard DVD-Video, as promised, then they can't be encrypted at all.

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Old 12-15-2004, 10:21 AM   #129 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Okeemike
Burning to DVD, of course, then leads into the question: can the be ripped using DeCSS and other such software? (assuming that they're protected as such). If so, then they can be decrypted, and shared, which is exactly what has everyone concerned. It'll be interesting to see how everyone works around this...


you can not put that kind of protection on with a consumer DVD burner. Teh DVDs will be rippable as any DVD of home movies you make.

to the question of files stored on the PC. since the rights management is handled by Windows Media Player I do not think a TiVo or service is needed as the key has been passed on with the file itself. Now if the software you install on the PC for TTG needs to talk to the TiVo every so often to keep active then their would be nothing to verify the key against at some point. so It comes down to that and since you can move files to a laptop to play away from home - my guess is the software will not need to see the TiVo all that much - probably only at install and then when you transfer a file the key is checked to make sure it is the same on the TiVo and the PC software. That is the only sensible way a laptop fits in. What does that new web page with the media access key say ?

But why give up a TiVo that lets you transfer files to a PC when another DVR will not. why not keep both DVRs ?
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:05 PM   #130 (Print)
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There is a ton of whining in this thread!

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Old 12-15-2004, 12:16 PM   #131 (Print)
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However, since there is a specific key required to burn shows, which also mandates the use of a specific authoring program. Is it possible to embed the key in the authored program? That way, if the program is ultimated shared on Kazaa or what not, it could be traced back to the original owner?


I wouldn't be surprised if the authoring software either had a watermark in it, or even so much as an overlay or "bug" like all TV channels do now. (I can see the little dancing Tivo guy in the corner now..). I suppose no good can come of a Tivo overlay/bug since that would just make Tivo look bad when their bug shows up in Kazaa. A watermark, on the otherhand, could include some encrypted version of the box serial#, allowing a copy to be traced back to the original encoder. The watermark would, ostensibly be invisible to the viewer.

We'll have to wait until it comes out to find out if watermarking is part of the product.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:17 PM   #132 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ROrbin
There is a ton of whining in this thread!

I smell a newbie wanting to post a URL...
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:29 PM   #133 (Print)
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In the OP's defense, and having used Tivo for about one year, and being a geek myself (20 years software developer), the real problem I see is expectations. Geeks have one set of expectations, the non-geeks have different expectations. This leads to a clash of cultures.

What you have to understand is that, frankly, Tivo doesn't give a damn about the geeks expectations. The device is targeted to a market who level of knowledge, expertise, and expectations is so low, that Tivo is more than willing to make decisions that to us geeks, seem stupid and nonsensical.

So what happens is, a geek like myself opens the box and EXPECTS to see an ethernet port. In fact, we're speechless as we twist that box around in a vain search for it, "maybe it's hidden somewhere, hmm...". We've come to expect ALL devices to be networkable at this point, considering that as far back as 1999 (the height of the Internet craze), the world was networking EVERYTHING. Ironically, its the same year of Tivo's birth, so it only makes geeks MORE baffled as to the lack of an ethernet port. Heck, I'm still surprised when I go Circuit City and can't find a single amplifer that's networked! I see them selling Bose high-end systems, $3000-5000, and even THEY'RE not networked. What gives (says the geek in me), I'm not dumping that much money into a device that can't even be networked, what in the world are they thinking?

And that's the rub, at the end of the day, you have to accept the fact that Tivo marches to the beat of a different drummer. It counts pennies to keep costs ultra low, so it will compromise on almost ANYTHING to save a few bucks per unit. Even if we geeks think its a colassal engineering gaff. Tivo will delay driver updates for Series2 USB 2.0 devices, despite being in the market for over a year, if its means they can avoid the costs and maintenance headaches of multiple code paths, despite the fact it limits your HMO severely, only 12mbps.

So you have to learn to accept Tivo for what it is, good and bad. As a geek, *AS* *A* *GEEK*, I find it woefully inadequate, primitive in some ways, backward thinking, lacking vision. Many poor design choices, slow development cycles, too many compromises made to insure 100% stability, etc. Evaluating Tivo purely as a geek w/ my geekish expectations, this is one very mediocre device.

That said, I own two Tivo's! The reason? I have a wife and kids, and they LOVE IT! And my wife is about as non-technical as you can get. If she can figure out Tivo in 20 minutes, that says a lot about the ease of use and efficacy of Tivo as a consumer device. At this point, I don't think I could actually get rid of it w/o a lot of hootin' and hollerin'.

On the other hand, I toss and turn at night lamenting all the things Tivo *could* and *should* do. Why isn't that DVD burner on my Humax DRT800 running 8x or 16x at this point? Why can't I transfer files faster than 12mbps? Why isn't there an ethernet port? Why is the HMO desktop application so pathetic? Why aren't there dozens more configuration options on the user interface to make navigation faster? And on and on. I have a complaint list two pages long! But I'm a geek, I have HIGH expectations.

Truth is, if you're expecting as much as I am, you need to either build your own, or purchase a multimedia PC intended to serve our segment. You pay considerably more for it, but you end up w/ FAR FAR more flexibility and features. That's my plan. I will keep the Tivo for the rest of the family, they'll be more than happy w/ it, despite all its flaws (believe me, they don't see them, only I do). I'm building my own system to satisfy *my* desires, without all the silly compromises of the Tivo. So everyone in the family ends up happy.

That's the way you have to approach it. Too many people are placing expectations on the Tivo device that Tivo itself has never bought into. It would be wonderful if Tivo was this truly open device, would satisfy the geeks and non-geeks equally, etc., but you're simply pushing a snowball uphill, IMO. Eventually, no matter how much you make progress up that hill w/ HD upgrades, JavaHMO, USB 2.0 drivers, Tivo2Go, whatever, it will NEVER provide the power and flexibility of a truly open system, such as your own purchased or DYI multimedia PC. Eventually, given geekish expectations, the momentum of Tivo to compromise every decision for the welfare of the themselves and the masses, will result in that snowball rolling back over you and you'll be disappointed and dissatisfied once more.

So I keep my Tivo running, pay the lifetime fee, upgrade the HD, perhaps muck w/ JavaHMO, live w/ the poor performance of the USB 1.1 drivers, all of it, with the knowledge it maintains a happy household. I keep myself happy by keeping THEM happy, and while I pursue my own, higher expectations on a completely different path -- building my own device. Once you come to this understanding, it's incredibly liberating. At this point, I just don't care what Tivo does or doesn't do. My expectations are so low for Tivo at this point, that ANY advancements, ANY, make me just say "that's nice, I'll check it out, someday" Any improvements are simply gravy.

JMTC

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Old 12-15-2004, 12:38 PM   #134 (Print)
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Good post. I feel the same way, though I would emphasize the cost more. It's nearly impossible to build a PC with even the rudimentary TiVo functionality without running up a tab easily twice the cost of the Tivo, even with lifetime sub.

/Mike
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:40 PM   #135 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by samkuhn
I wouldn't be surprised if the authoring software either had a watermark in it, could include some encrypted version of the box serial#, allowing a copy to be traced back to the original encoder. The watermark would, ostensibly be invisible to the viewer.

We'll have to wait until it comes out to find out if watermarking is part of the product.



we have already seen how each account will have its own Media Access Key for TTG so just having the ability to determine that key from the file is all TiVo would need. It would be bad to have the key in the clear so I agree with you it would be encrypted. but definitely simple to be there and for Tivo to trace and deal with the account that made it.
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:51 PM   #136 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by eibgrad
...What you have to understand is that, frankly, Tivo doesn't give a damn about the geeks expectations....


Actually, it should be geeks' expectations.

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Old 12-15-2004, 12:55 PM   #137 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by eibgrad
What you have to understand is that, frankly, Tivo doesn't give a damn about the geeks expectations. The device is targeted to a market who level of knowledge, expertise, and expectations is so low, that Tivo is more than willing to make decisions that to us geeks, seem stupid and nonsensical.

snip

That said, I own two Tivo's! The reason? I have a wife and kids, and they LOVE IT! And my wife is about as non-technical as you can get. If she can figure out Tivo in 20 minutes, that says a lot about the ease of use and efficacy of Tivo as a consumer device. At this point, I don't think I could actually get rid of it w/o a lot of hootin' and hollerin'.
JMTC

eibgrad


hehe you just described my exact reasons for going with TiVo as well. Just last night my wife turned to me during a commercial break and said "you know, it is really a pain watching live TV" cause we were watching live TV as I had EarthSea recording and Christmas specials for the kids recording on the sceond TiVo.

as to your target audience point - Jim Burton - the tech visionary guy at TiVo - was involved in a Silicon graphics deal to provide interactive Tv as a pilot program in FL. he estimated the set top box back then at $10,000 and it was very PC like. His lesson learned from that - there is no market for that worth a companies commercial efforts as a targeted product. Seems to ratify your point and I agree 100%

The only point I disagree on - I bought the TiVo to get something going quickly and for family use, thinking I would build something or get/hack one for myself. Now with TiVoToGo and the path they are on , I am happy to use the TiVo and let them do all the work for me
fortunately I have not been bit by the HD bug yet, being on basic cable so can wait a year for TiVo to get their act together on that, but I would not buy anything now that was at least not HD ready
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Old 12-15-2004, 01:00 PM   #138 (Print)
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I completely agree with all your points. You just have to add how it takes so long to change the channels.
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Old 12-15-2004, 03:18 PM   #139 (Print)
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I agree too with everything brought up. I remember 4 years ago when I told my wife we were getting Tivo. She just rolled her eyes and said, "just another toy to add to the cabinet". Today, if I were take it away, I would end up in divorce court.

She advertises it to friends and family even more than I do. My 10 year old wants her own (she might get it, I now have a Humax for downstairs).

The only thing I would add is that TIVO does seem to care about us geeks. If they did not, they would put an end to all the hacking that can be done on these. As long as we don't cross the line of their losing revenue, us geeks can continue to find out nifty things to tailor these machines to our own needs, and almost have Tivo's blessing to do it. Not as tailorable as your own creation, but still customizable to an extent!
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Old 12-15-2004, 07:48 PM   #140 (Print)
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HERE HERE!

I think most of your complaints are quite valid.

Not supporting WPA is a total joke - I'm not interested in broadcasting my signal to the entire neighborhood. Any 12 year old can break WEP.

Additionally, you people who keep going on about the ",#401" can shut up now, thanks. I sat and fought with the stupid box to dial out over Vonage for 4 HOURS, only to discover after coming to this site weeks later that there was a way to get on the wireless network right away. Why not just make it a default option and be done with it?!

Your "channel 99" problem is fictitious, though. There is a setting to allow 3 digit channel numbers in the cable setup area.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:09 PM   #141 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by davezatz
And any 14 year old can break WPA.


Not quite, there is an additional step or two involved, they don't have the patience.
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Old 12-15-2004, 08:47 PM   #142 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pernar
Not quite, there is an additional step or two involved, they don't have the patience.


Plus it takes roughtly a GIG of intecepted packets to decrypt. How much data do you think is sent at one time? In my approximation, 500k, max.

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Old 12-15-2004, 08:51 PM   #143 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pernar
Additionally, you people who keep going on about the ",#401" can shut up now, thanks. I sat and fought with the stupid box to dial out over Vonage for 4 HOURS, only to discover after coming to this site weeks later that there was a way to get on the wireless network right away. Why not just make it a default option and be done with it?!
Because it doesn't exist? (At least for most folks).

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Old 12-16-2004, 12:46 AM   #144 (Print)
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If all you want is a digital VCR, then a Time Warner box is probably a better choice for you. Basically, the Time Warner box has about the same capabilities as my old StarSight equipped VCR. It won't let you search for a show by name (only indexing by the first letter), or search through two weeks of shows at once (searches one day at a time), or search by keyword, actor, or director. It won't prioritize shows and deal with conflicts automatically. It won't record a show if its timeslot changes. And you certainly can't add an additional hard drive to store dozens and dozens of shows. But a VCR won't do any of those things either.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:10 AM   #145 (Print)
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Re: New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh
[*]I wanted to replace my cable company's digital box with my TiVo unit. But I can't, since the TiVo only works up to ch. 99 - heck, my VCR goes to 125. But if I want to watch HBO or Showtime, I have to use my cable box. But the TiVo guide *shows* HBO and Showtime programming. Talk about misleading.
[/B]


You cannot be serious about this. I've got my tivo connected up to my digital cable, and i have no issue recording anything on the 360+ channels i get.

this all sounds like one huge case of PEBCAK to me....
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:42 AM   #146 (Print)
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You people need to pay attention to the OPs posts. He's not talking about a Tivo hooked to digital cable (with a cable box), he's talking about hooking it directly to the cable, no box, to pick up the analog channels which go to 125. He's clarified that at least once to other posters who misread it the same way.

Not that there isn't plenty to criticize about his complaints, but people are repatedly making the same objections to the same misinterpretations of his issues.
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