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Old 12-13-2004, 02:14 PM   #1 (Print)
hfelsh
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Thumbs down New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

First off, I got my TiVo yesterday. I took the CompUSA ad (with the TiVo 40-hour unit advertised as $199 - $100 instant rebate = $99.99) to Best Buy, and had them 110% price match it, so I paid $89.99 + $6.30 tax (7% FL) = $96.29, and I've pre-qualified for the $100 TiVo mail-in rebate.

My list of complaints, so far:
  1. Out of the box, TiVo *requires* a (landline) phone to do the initial "setup". Well, that's a problem for me. Like many Americans, I did away with my POTS (Plain Old Telephone System; a landline) phone about 6 years ago, and I only use a cel phone. My only option - take the TiVo to my neighbor's apartment, and connect to HER phoneline. And then leave my TiVo there overnight, since it said it needed "...4-8 hours to process the data" when it was done.
  2. If TiVo were smart, the setup would FIRST go to the "Phone and Network" settings, where you could select network instead. Then you could configure your wireless or wired settings, and tell it to do the setup over the internet. This would alleviate the hassles for those who only use cel phones - a growing number of people in the USA.
  3. If TiVo were REALLY smart, they'd have a freakin' CAT-5 connection built in. Or an on-board wireless (b or g) controller. No, it's not THAT much more expensive, especially when TiVo, a large manufacturer, buys in bulk.
  4. OK, the (dialup!) initial setup is done. The USB 802.11b NIC is installed. 802.11b? Why wouldn't they support 802.11g? It's not like it hasn't been out for a few years already. Heck, it's almost ready to be replaced by 802.11n, the newer standard. The 802.11g protocol isn't much different than the 802.11b, if at all. Both run on 2.4gHz. 802.11g can do WEP (see my next comment), so an 802.11g adapter *should* work, in theory. But apparently, they don't due to a firmware driver in the TiVo preventing it. If the TiVo unit required a firmware update, then why wouldn't they at LEAST do that during the initial PHONELINE setup? Newer units would/should come with the "newer" firmware to support 802.11g out of the box. Yes, I read some other posts that "...many manufacturers only make drivers for the latest Windows, and don't release specs for their drivers..." Which is bull. You show me a major manufacturer (Linksys, Belkin, Netgear, etc.) 802.11g adapter (USB, PCI, or PCMCIA) and I'll show you an open-source Linux driver for it. From which TiVo *should* be able to add support for it. But they obviously aren't. Way to stay with the technology times, TiVo.
  5. Speaking of wireless, the TiVo unit will only work with WEP - not WPA-PSK. WEP is the original privacy technology for 802.11. It was developed in 1995 and was flawed. It works well enough to stop the honest person. WPA is a set of security features that are well designed. It is based on a 2003 draft of 802.11i, the new security model for 802.11. That was 2 years ago. but, intheir infinite wisdom, TiVo isn't supporting it. Probably because they think it's a closed standard or something. So now, I have to run my entire wireless network in the less-secure WEP because the TiVo doesn't support WPA. Which it should, it's been out long enough. The USB NIC I have supports it. Again, a simple firmware update from TiVo would allow this. The firmware for older TiVo units COULD be done during the initial dialup setup. Newer units would/should ship with the firmware in place already.
  6. I wanted to replace my cable company's digital box with my TiVo unit. But I can't, since the TiVo only works up to ch. 99 - heck, my VCR goes to 125. But if I want to watch HBO or Showtime, I have to use my cable box. But the TiVo guide *shows* HBO and Showtime programming. Talk about misleading.
  7. Speaking of the TiVo guide, I expected something like the TV Guide I see on my PC, using the tvguide.com interactive display. I didn't see it. Granted, I haven't played with the TiVo yet, but I shouldn't have to. It should be right there when I turn it on, letting me pick what channel or show to watch. Maybe there's a way to make it do that. I'll have to play with it and find out.
[sarcasm] All this for $12.95 a month? [/sarcasm] My VCR does all this, and doesn't require a monthly fee. OK, my VCR doesn't have a hard drive, nor does it let me stream movies - but my (modded) Xbox does, and I don't pay anything extra a month for that. So the TiVo isn't selling me on THAT point. Basically, what I have is a digital VCR (aka DVR) that costs me $12.95 a month to use, and will (try to) intelligently record programs it thinks I might like, based on what I tell it to record. And it costs me $155 a year to have it. Another option - get the DVR from my local cable company (Bright House Networks, formerly known as Time Warner Cable), and pay $8.95 a month for it. It does 95% of everything TiVo does (everything except intelligently record programs it thinks I might like, which isn't a feature I'll even use.) And it costs less - at $8.95 a month, that's $107 a year, which is $48 less than TiVo. Or I can save myself the $155 a year, and just use my VCR to tape what I tell it to, like I've been doing for years.

Maybe other TiVo users have been complaining of these things. I have to try it for at least 30 days, to make sure I get the $100 TiVo MIR, and thereby make the TiVo unit free after rebate for me. But if I'd paid the $99 AR (plus tax on $199), I'd be taking it back to the store right now for a refund. Maybe I'll change my tune in 30 days - but somehow, I doubt it. Will I stay on past 30 days? Only time will tell, but right now, I wouldn't count on it.

Last edited by hfelsh : 12-13-2004 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:19 PM   #2 (Print)
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Same old complaints--- all vaild it seems but it is the same old thing us tivo-lovers hear all the time.

Here's to hoping you change your tune with some more time.

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:28 PM   #3 (Print)
dgh
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Re: New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh
I wanted to replace my cable company's digital box with my TiVo unit. But I can't, since the TiVo only works up to ch. 99 - heck, my VCR goes to 125. But if I want to watch HBO or Showtime, I have to use my cable box. But the TiVo guide *shows* HBO and Showtime programming. Talk about misleading.


TiVo works fine with HBO and Showtime. It controls the cable box via the IR blaster. I'm not sure what you mean by 7, but there are several forms of guides, but I rarely use them. Everything I want already has season passes set up.

As for $12.95 a month - that's your choice. Lifetime is the cheap way to go. Around $0/month when typical resale values are factored in.

By the way, my TiVo was $399 and I think it was the best bang for the buck video gadget of all time! Give it a shot.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:30 PM   #4 (Print)
JoeBarbs
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Quote:
Originally posted by dirtypacman
Here's to hoping you change your tune with some more time.


With all due respect to the OP....I really don't see you being happy no matter what. Glass is always half empty kind of guy.

You managed to score a great machine for $3.71. That is $3.71 PAID TO YOU after rebate. Take a look at your glass again, maybe it will start to look half full.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:38 PM   #5 (Print)
aadam101
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Just get a Cable company DVR and see how miserable you will be with that.

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:38 PM   #6 (Print)
aadam101
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BTW, if you came hera first you would have realized Tivo doesn't need a phone line.

I know the instructions says that it does. It doesn't!

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:40 PM   #7 (Print)
AllAboutJeeps
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FYI. As for your point #1. Neither of my two Standalone Series2 TiVo's have ever been plugged into a phone line. A little reading on here will get you past it.

Also, don't forget that TiVo has a 30day money back guarantee. If I were you I would return it and keep using your Xbox.

...danny
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:43 PM   #8 (Print)
W Auggie H
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Research...

What are you really mad about?

Everything you talk about has been hashed out on this forum and else where many times over. You should have done better research before you decided to let TiVo buy you a box to use for a 12.95 a month.

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:44 PM   #9 (Print)
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Here is how you can fix all your problems.

Unhook the TiVo. Pull all the peices back in the box. Return it to the store. Don't ever come here again.

I know you are obviously a ulta-comp geek because you are upset about your 802.11g and security protocals and the like, but this is not a techy product. If you want that there are some systems out there designed for the computer geek that would probably give you endless hours of fun configuring and gageting. (BTW, I am a computer geek myself, but I like stability in my TV viewing)

Please read this next line carefully: THIS IS A RETAIL PRODUCT SOLD TO BE USEABLE BY THE MASSES OUT OF THE BOX!!!!

Ok, now at least I feel better. 99% of people in this country have a POTS line. 100% of the people with a wireless network can support the protocols that TiVo uses. Now, it may not be the cutting edge latest and greatest, but as a retail product that isn't what you want. What you want is to appeal to the broadest user base.

This product has been for sale for years. They do their best to keep the software revision universal amongst all of their products (of course Series 1 vs. Series 2 is different). So, if they want to keep the system universal for their users then the code HAS, I repeat, HAS to work on the old platforms as well as the new and it cannot disable current users. That means they are not going to up the security protocol and possibly disable some current users, forcing them to buy new networking hardware, so that one guy can enjoy his "ultra secure" wireless network (said tounge in cheek since the protocols in the home network hardware is still a joke).

These may all be vaild reason for you to be disappointed, but there are valid reason why TiVo is the way it is. Retail products are not designed to be cutting edge, they are designed to appeal to the most people. Every product is not for everyone. If you don't like it, take it back. Coming here a spewing a diatribe for post #1 may not have been the best choice you have made....

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:44 PM   #10 (Print)
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3 TiVos, 6 upgrade drives, hours spent hacking.... Well worth it.. Sure it has little flaws but they are easily overcome and generally moot.

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Old 12-13-2004, 02:50 PM   #11 (Print)
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1-5 are the same complaint about the setup/phone line.

As others have said, there are ways around this. Now that it's set up, you can use your wireless connection (although you unhappy with how that works).

6. Is you not understanding -- it's really not Tivo's fault, but the cable companies. Tivo does not have a digital cable box tuner, as each one is different and the cable company requires you to pay them for the digital cable box. Do a google search for cablecard and see how this will change next year (hopefully)

7. I don't know what you are talking about.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:54 PM   #12 (Print)
hfelsh
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Quote:
Originally posted by aadam101
Just get a Cable company DVR and see how miserable you will be with that.


I've had one. In fact, my previous employer WAS Bright House Networks. I wasn't "miserable" at all with it. I was quite happy, in fact.

All You might not be happy with what I had to say. But I'm certainly NOT the only person to say it. As dirtypacman said, "Same old complaints--- all vaild it seems but it is the same old thing us tivo-lovers hear all the time." So TiVo obviously HAS heard these complaints before, and yet doesn't DO anything about them. As for trying to get my TiVo to not use a phone line, I did search around here. Problem is, the TiVo setup would NOT let me get past it, nor would it even let me enter anything.

As for including a CAT-5 connection, sorry, but that should be a basic. For them to leave it out is sheer stupidity. To be able to change the setup, and allow you to choose wireless first - would only require a simple firmware change. They could leave it to "dialup" but have an "advanced or alternate configuration" and it would STILL "appeal to the masses". But again, in their infinite wisdom, they chose not to.

And DDayDawg, doing what you suggested wouldn't "fix all my problems". it would simply fix YOUR problem - and obviously others - by puting a blind eye toward simple things that COULD and SHOULD be done to make TiVo easier and more appealing. Each and every one of you sound like a Mac zealot, and how if *anyone* dare comment on something that *might* be wrong, you'll unleash on them.

Issues don't ever get resolved if they don't ever get addressed.

Last edited by hfelsh : 12-13-2004 at 09:16 PM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 02:57 PM   #13 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh
...Each and every one of you sound like a Mac zealot, and how if *anyone* dare comment on something that *might* be wrong, you'll unleash on them.
Speak about unleashing...

My name is Bob, and I'm a zealot...

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Old 12-13-2004, 03:01 PM   #14 (Print)
ZikZak
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Re: New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh

I wanted to replace my cable company's digital box with my TiVo unit. But I can't, since the TiVo only works up to ch. 99 - heck, my VCR goes to 125. But if I want to watch HBO or Showtime, I have to use my cable box. But the TiVo guide *shows* HBO and Showtime programming. Talk about misleading.


Misleading? Surely you jest. You didn't think TiVo was going to descramble premium TV on its own, did you? Not when every cable company in the universe uses a different scambling algorithm? That's why it's built to interface with your cable box.

Quote:
Speaking of the TiVo guide, I expected something like the TV Guide I see on my PC, using the tvguide.com interactive display. I didn't see it.


You must have missed the big "GUIDE" button on the remote, I suppose. *sigh*

Quote:
All this for $12.95 a month? My VCR does all this, and doesn't require a monthly fee. OK, my VCR doesn't have a hard drive, nor does it let me stream movies - but my (modded) Xbox does, and I don't pay anything extra a month for that. So the TiVo isn't selling me on THAT point. Basically, what I have is a digital VCR (aka DVR) that costs me $12.95 a month to use, and will (try to) intelligently record programs it thinks I might like, based on what I tell it to record.


No, the $12.95 is for Season Passes and Wishlists which you clearly have not used yet, but represent the core tivo functionality, and are what makes a TiVo hugely different from a VCR.

I agree with the connectivity issues; tivo should be networkable out of the box. But it's not. And now that you're set up with networking, you'll never have to go through that irritation again. As for the other stuff, how about you come back and complain after you've actually used the box you got paid $3 for buying?
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:15 PM   #15 (Print)
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1,2) As has already been stated, the vast majority of the country has a traditional landline or VOIP telephone that will work for Tivo's initial setup. If you had bothered to do any kind of research, which you are apparently willing to do when it's convenient for you (such as letting Tivo know that there are wireless drivers for linux since apparently you're so much smarter than they are), you would know that you are able to use your Internet connection to configure Tivo. But you didn't, you decided to bitch and moan about it.

3) Again, geeks are NOT the target audience of tivo. Be grateful they run an open system and don't slap lawsuits on people who try to modify their tivo to do the (legal) things that they want it to do. They didn't have to make it possible to plug a USB LAN card into the thing either, but they did. I like that and it's one of the reasons I'm turning into a big Tivo fan. Having cat-5 jacks on the box implies they will help Joe Consumer set up a network on his Tivo, and who wants that support nightmare?

4,5) Any form of wireless security is a joke. You might as well give it up. Your WEP network is not secure. Your WPA network is not secure. Your MAC-filtered network is not secure. It will *never* be secure. And who cares about someone intercepeting what TV shows you're watching? Freak.

6) This comment proves you are completely clueless and too lazy to do any real research. Take this beef up with your cable companies (who you presumably used to work for; shouldn't you know this stuff?) not Tivo.

7) Wow. So how crowded was the short bus this morning?

There are several valid complaints you can have with Tivo (such as it cutting off the last 18 seconds of basketball games!) but you didn't even come close to a single one of them.

I don't know why I bother to feed the trolls. There really is no point.......
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:41 PM   #16 (Print)
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Why include a CAT-5? How many people have their entertainment system right next to their broadboand connection? Just the cable folks for the most part. What about those of us with multiple TIVOs? Most people will opt for the wireless connection, and there are may more wireless products for USB than CAT-5?

The Xbox went with a CAT-5 and it was a miserable mistake. Everyone had to go with the WET11 or Linksys game adapter instead of a normal USB wireless device. The Xbox should have come with a common USB port for the wireless capabilities.

802.11i isn't even out yet for public consumption, the only 2 wireless options for the common masses is B and G. I, N and all the other NEW standards are still in a state of flux and in different stages of release. Sure you can buy the units to run these other standards, but they cannot be found on the shelves of Best Buy, Walmart, and Circuit City.

I agree that the wireless should have been built in, PDAs, laptops, etc all have it already, and it might add about $20 to the Tivo pricetag and save alot of grief for folks having problems finding the right hardware version and right brands of USB wireless. This is about the only thing I agree with you on. The only problem I see here is that alot of people will put a TIVO unit in a cabinet, quickly cutting down on the signal strength. Having a separate USB device not included with TIVO eliminates this issue.
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:43 PM   #17 (Print)
cuyahoga
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Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh
Each and every one of you sound like a Mac zealot, and how if *anyone* dare comment on something that *might* be wrong, you'll unleash on them.



How did Mac users become a target in this thread all of a sudden?

Haven't they been bashed enough?
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Old 12-13-2004, 03:52 PM   #18 (Print)
mikebridge
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Re: New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

1. no, it doesn't, you can use a usb/ethernet adapter and a dialing prefix of ",#401" to have it connect over the local network (requires dhcp)
2. see above
3. consumer option, can't build a box that has everything for everyone, but with USB the end user can tailor it to their needs
4. 802.11g has been out for less then 18 months. march 2003 prestandard 802.11g devices entered the market, the standard was ratified june 2003, and device certification began in july 2003.
5. 802.11i isn't ratified (at least, last i looked) no matter how old the draft is, so until its finalized, its not a certifiable standard.
6. complain about opencable + the cablecard initiative dragging their feet on ratifying that standard, once that happens, tivo can easily put out a cablecard compliant box that can replace any compliant cableco's box (i'm thinking january)
7. uhm, your tivo is always on, so you mean when you turn on your tv? hit the guide button. don't like how it displays it? hit enter and go thru the display options, it can do a standard grid.

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Old 12-13-2004, 03:52 PM   #19 (Print)
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Didn't even notice that.

Don't worry, when you're right you tend to ignore the complainings of people who wish they were right.

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Old 12-13-2004, 03:55 PM   #20 (Print)
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To be fair, your $12.95 does more than provide Suggestions. It also gives you guide data, Season Passes (including automatic adjustments for epidsode delays, 1 hour specials, etc.), searchable features like Title Search or Actor Keywords, Wishlists, and another big thing it gets you is automatic software updates.

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Old 12-13-2004, 04:02 PM   #21 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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all the problems you listed are setup problems. You are now past those porblems and will not have them again. Also if you researched in here you wouldfind that entering 0000 for zip and tuny tivo for provider would reduce phoneline setup time to about an hour.

as for USB
they picked a chipset (for cost reasons) that could have only one PCI bus on it they picked USB over ethernet because USB is more versatile. Really you are complaining because you had to use a USB adapter - and for wireless the USB adapter actaully makes things easier than having to do a wireless bridge from the ethernet port. you are compaining about really stupid things to take a TiVo back for.

the next release of TiVo OS is coming very soon, hnag on till then to complain. in regards to putting USB 2.0 or 11G on - you have to realize that this is not just a PC moving some data around - it is a very tight algorythm that can record a channel, play another show, copy a show to another TiVo and copy a show from another Tivo, while (soon) copying a show to a PC as well. because the recording and playback are realtime any increase in bandwidth (like USB 2.0 from 1.1) for the other parts needs to be worked in carefully and the whole shebang tweaked and tested well to make sure the recording and playback keep working flawlesly. Oh and wireless G adapter drivers on LInux exist but are not very mature yet.

so it is not just a firmware driver update but a whole OS change they have to consider. Everyone fully expects the TiVoToGo release to have this overhaul done though - so stay tuned and check out season passes and wishlists while you wait. Once you have those suckers going you will end up using the guide itself once in a blue moon and can drop that off the list of complaints. Tivo is not about channel surfing, it is abouthaving a now playing menu full of shows you wnat to watch

So enjoy the TiVo this week and report back next week.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:04 PM   #22 (Print)
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I don't understand why people keep saying 4-8 hours. I might have gotten lucky, but mine only took about 45 minutes and was only connected for about 20 of them total.

Can't wait to see what happens with the broadband connection.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:09 PM   #23 (Print)
hfelsh
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Quote:
Originally posted by MattElmore
1,2) As has already been stated, the vast majority of the country has a traditional landline or VOIP telephone that will work for Tivo's initial setup. If you had bothered to do any kind of research, which you are apparently willing to do when it's convenient for you (such as letting Tivo know that there are wireless drivers for linux since apparently you're so much smarter than they are), you would know that you are able to use your Internet connection to configure Tivo. But you didn't, you decided to bitch and moan about it.

And yet, my TiVo would NOT let me change any settings to let me. I tried the "fix" to get the guided setup to use my wireless adapter (which is on the TiVo compatability list) - I can't remember exactly what it was, something like ,#401 as the prefix - and it still wouldn't work.
Quote:
3) Again, geeks are NOT the target audience of tivo. Be grateful they run an open system and don't slap lawsuits on people who try to modify their tivo to do the (legal) things that they want it to do. They didn't have to make it possible to plug a USB LAN card into the thing either, but they did. I like that and it's one of the reasons I'm turning into a big Tivo fan. Having cat-5 jacks on the box implies they will help Joe Consumer set up a network on his Tivo, and who wants that support nightmare?

"Grateful"? I don't think so. Try as they might, TiVo could not stop anyone from modding their boxes as much as they want, nor could they "slap a lawsuit on them". US consumer law - "right of first use" - allows you to do so. Once you purchase the hardware, it's yours to do with as you please. It's the same reason you can legally mod your Xbox or PS2. What's "illegal" is the BIOS software made from unlicensed SDKs. Legal BIOS - such as the Cromwell Linux - are perfectly legal and can't be stopped. Microsoft and Sony know this. They're not happy about it, but they can't do anything about it. Nor can TiVo - so if you want to upgrade to a larger HDD, drill holes in the box, or even take it out of the case and install it in a chair, you can. Legally. And there's nothing TiVo can do to stop you.
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4,5) Any form of wireless security is a joke. You might as well give it up. Your WEP network is not secure. Your WPA network is not secure. Your MAC-filtered network is not secure. It will *never* be secure. And who cares about someone intercepeting what TV shows you're watching? Freak.

A deadbolt is more secure than a doorknob lock - which do YOU have on your front door? And I never said *anything* about "someone intercepting what TV shows I'm watching". I said now my entire wireless network - including my wireless laptop - has to run in the less-secure WEP because TiVo won't work with WPA.
Quote:
6) This comment proves you are completely clueless and too lazy to do any real research. Take this beef up with your cable companies (who you presumably used to work for; shouldn't you know this stuff?) not Tivo.

(ZikZak, this comment is for you as well): Do you have a VCR? Turn it on. What's the highest channel it will go to? Mine goes to 125. Channels 2-125 are commonly known as "extended basic", and are NOT scrambled. If you don't subscribe to the "extended", they're blocked via the use of a line filter outside your dwelling. If you DO subscribe to it, you do not have a line filter blocking them. So any device capable of receiving a TV signal will display them. And yet, the TiVo stops at channel 99. I bought my VCR at WalMart. They sell this model all over the country, and it has no special hardware. Certainly nothing "customized" for each and every cable provider. It's been with me through 4 states in 7 years. Tell me again why I should complain to my cable provider that the TiVo hardware won't support basic cable TV up to channel 125? 'Cause I missed that point.
Quote:
7) Wow. So how crowded was the short bus this morning?

Well, you obviously missed the bus, so I found a seat. Did you forget how to put your socks on, perhaps? Remember, they go on BEFORE your shoes, not after.

While we're on this subject - do you have a TV card in your PC? I do, in one of them at least. I have the ATI TV Wonder USB. ANd it includes:

"Surfing channels has never been easier. You can scan channels easily with the built-in 125-channel TV tuner featuring the user-friendly GemstarGUIDE Plus+™ interactive TV guide and channel preview software that lets you see what’s on at a glance."

This is the same thing you see at tvguide.com. You download the content for X amount of days (where X is the a # you specify, such as 2, 3, 5 or 7), and then update when you need to. Where is that on TiVo? (Like I said, it *might* be there, but I haven't played with my TiVo enough yet.)
Quote:
There are several valid complaints you can have with Tivo (such as it cutting off the last 18 seconds of basketball games!) but you didn't even come close to a single one of them.

Overruns are not the fault of TiVo, and I don't complain about them since that is the networks issue, not TiVo. TiVo doesn't control how long a program runs.
Quote:
I don't know why I bother to feed the trolls. There really is no point....... [/B]
Posting my complaints is trolling? Perhaps it is to some of you. But it's been said before, obviously, and yet TiVo hasn't addressed the issues.

edit: fixed tags.

Last edited by hfelsh : 12-13-2004 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:14 PM   #24 (Print)
Turtleboy
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You still don't see the guide?
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:19 PM   #25 (Print)
hfelsh
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
all the problems you listed are setup problems. You are now past those porblems and will not have them again. Also if you researched in here you wouldfind that entering 0000 for zip and tuny tivo for provider would reduce phoneline setup time to about an hour.

I did read here first. No, I didn't see those. But, that could be my fault, I'll concede that.
Quote:
for USB
they picked a chipset (for cost reasons) that could have only one PCI bus on it they picked USB over ethernet because USB is more versatile. Really you are complaining because you had to use a USB adapter - and for wireless the USB adapter actaully makes things easier than having to do a wireless bridge from the ethernet port. you are compaining about really stupid things to take a TiVo back for.

I'm not complaining because I had to use a USB adapter - that part I can accept. my major complaint is that I couldn't use that very USB adapter to do the setup - I had to connect to a POTS line. If TiVo had it so that I could have done the setup thru my wireless network using the USB adapter (which works NOW), I'd have been much more pleased.
Quote:
the next release of TiVo OS is coming very soon, hnag on till then to complain. in regards to putting USB 2.0 or 11G on - you have to realize that this is not just a PC moving some data around - it is a very tight algorythm that can record a channel, play another show, copy a show to another TiVo and copy a show from another Tivo, while (soon) copying a show to a PC as well. because the recording and playback are realtime any increase in bandwidth (like USB 2.0 from 1.1) for the other parts needs to be worked in carefully and the whole shebang tweaked and tested well to make sure the recording and playback keep working flawlesly. Oh and wireless G adapter drivers on LInux exist but are not very mature yet.

If TiVo supports 802.11b, then 802.11g is NOT going to modify how it works recording channels. I don't care abotu USB 1.1 to 2.0 - I never even mentioned that. The wireless port is ONLY used when updating. So what you're saying is that TiVo has to test to see if updating "too quickly" might break something. Which makes no sense, since if I'd use d a wired USB adapter, I'd be connected at 100mb.
Quote:
so it is not just a firmware driver update but a whole OS change they have to consider. Everyone fully expects the TiVoToGo release to have this overhaul done though - so stay tuned and check out season passes and wishlists while you wait. Once you have those suckers going you will end up using the guide itself once in a blue moon and can drop that off the list of complaints. Tivo is not about channel surfing, it is abouthaving a now playing menu full of shows you wnat to watch

So enjoy the TiVo this week and report back next week. [/B]

Again, the OS does NOT need to be changed to support 802.11g networking. You're missing my point.

edit: About the "802.11i" comment from earlier. I said that WPA is *based on* the 802.11i standard. 802.11i will probably NEVER be ratified. However, WPA *has* been ratified as a security protocol standard for wireless networks. I did not say I wanted TiVo to support 802.11i, but rather WPA, which is a standard and has been ratified.

Last edited by hfelsh : 12-13-2004 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:22 PM   #26 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh


If TiVo supports 802.11b, then 802.11g is NOT going to modify how it works recording channels. I don't care abotu USB 1.1 to 2.0 - I never even mentioned that. The wireless port is ONLY used when updating. So what you're saying is that TiVo has to test to see if updating "too quickly" might break something. Which makes no sense, since if I'd use d a wired USB adapter, I'd be connected at 100mb..


ACtually, Tivo is about to release tivo2go which will let you transfer programs from your Tivo to your pc, and that uses the usb port.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:22 PM   #27 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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stop using the guide to setup recordings and start using search by title, etc.. it is much easier and will show all upcoming episodes 2 weeks out for that show without having to fart around in the guide grid.

once a season pass is setup not only will it autoamtically update itself as it gets new guide data every two days or so but it is smart enough to know things like "The Apprentice" put on two episodes in one week at the finale and one of them was two hours long.
it also will figure out you have otehr season passes and will figure out conflicts based on the priority you gave them in the list of season passes.
and if you set up the list correctly and have 'The apprentice" toward the bottom it will figure out that each episode is on about 5 different times and can get one of those that does not conflict with other shows you have in the time slots overlapping the extra two hours "the apprentice"comes on in that finale week.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:32 PM   #28 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh
If TiVo supports 802.11b, then 802.11g is NOT going to modify how it works recording channels. I don't care abotu USB 1.1 to 2.0 - I never even mentioned that. The wireless port is ONLY used when updating. So what you're saying is that TiVo has to test to see if updating "too quickly" might break something. Which makes no sense, since if I'd use d a wired USB adapter, I'd be connected at 100mb.

Again, the OS does NOT need to be changed to support 802.11g networking. You're missing my point.


sorry you missed my point completely and show a serious lack of understanding about USB bandwidth- with a wire on USB 1.1 you get a theoretical max of 11mb - nowhere near 100mb. And I am not talking about updating - if all you use the connection for is for TiVo to do updates what do you care what speed it is - the updates happen at off hours and do not take long even on a phone line let alone over the broadband.

what I am talking about is moving files between TiVos and soon a PC -
there is a hard drive and streams have to be written and read from that hard drive. tiVo is setup to do many things ata once - recording a show means writing the stream to the hard drive in real time (with some caching) and playing abck a show means reading the hard drive in real time. these two things must happen with only well timed interrupts for the other functions I mentioned. the other functions get a dramatic boost in speed when the USB protocol moves on to USB 2.0 for wired and 11G for wireless . it is these other functions that must be tweaked along with the real time ones to make sure everything works correctly, especially recording and playback of broadcast. USB 2.0 and 11g do indeed change how things get recorded and needs a whole OS update for EVERYTHING to work well. You have to stop thinking of this as a PC and think of it as a Digital recorder. Think in terms of an AIW card in a PC and how that changes what else you can do with the Pc when the AIW is recording

Last edited by ZeoTiVo : 12-13-2004 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:45 PM   #29 (Print)
hfelsh
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo sorry you missed my point completely and show a serious lack of understanding about USB bandwidth- with a wire on USB 1.1 you get a theoretical max of 11mb - nowhere near 100mb. And I am not talking about updating - if all you use the connection for is for TiVo to do updates what do you care what speed it is - the updates happen at off hours and do not take long even on a phone line let alone over the broadband.

No, I understand that. I'm not talking theoretical max limits. I'm talking about connecting via 802.11g and WPA. I used the CAT-5 USB as an example, albeit a bad one. Speed is not really the issue - the issue is having to use an older 802.11b device, and to use WEP security instead of WPA. Which means ALL devices on my wireless network now have to use WEP.
Quote:
You have to stop thinking of this as a PC and think of it as a Digital recorder. Think in terms of an AIW card in a PC and how that changes what else you can do with the Pc when the AIW is recording

That I can understand. Why, why - someone tell me - does TiVo stop at channel 99, when every other device out there goes to channel 125? I don't watch HBO or Showtime much. My plan *was* to get rid of them, and my cable company box as well, and only use the TiVo, to watch extended basic channels, 2 - 125. I could do this with my VCR. I could do this with my PC. But now, I have to keep the cable box since my kids watch channel 124 a lot (as I said, it's a cartoon channel here.) My VCR in my bedroom lets them watch channel 124, and it has *no* special hardware. My PC with the ATI TV Wonder USB lets them watch channel 124 - again, nothing special about the hardware. And yet, my TiVo stops at channel 99.
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Old 12-13-2004, 04:47 PM   #30 (Print)
dcorsi
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Re: New TiVo user - and I'm not happy.

Quote:
Originally posted by hfelsh

My list of complaints, so far:
  1. Out of the box, TiVo *requires* a (landline) phone to do the initial "setup". Well, that's a problem for me. Like many Americans, I did away with my POTS (Plain Old Telephone System; a landline) phone about 6 years ago, and I only use a cel phone. My only option - take the TiVo to my neighbor's apartment, and connect to HER phoneline. And then leave my TiVo there overnight, since it said it needed "...4-8 hours to process the data" when it was done.
  2. If TiVo were smart, the setup would FIRST go to the "Phone and Network" settings, where you could select network instead. Then you could configure your wireless or wired settings, and tell it to do the setup over the internet. This would alleviate the hassles for those who only use cel phones - a growing number of people in the USA.
  3. If TiVo were REALLY smart, they'd have a freakin' CAT-5 connection built in. Or an on-board wireless (b or g) controller. No, it's not THAT much more expensive, especially when TiVo, a large manufacturer, buys in bulk.
  4. OK, the (dialup!) initial setup is done. The USB 802.11b NIC is installed. 802.11b? Why wouldn't they support 802.11g? It's not like it hasn't been out for a few years already. Heck, it's almost ready to be replaced by 802.11n, the newer standard. The 802.11g protocol isn't much different than the 802.11b, if at all. Both run on 2.4gHz. 802.11g can do WEP (see my next comment), so an 802.11g adapter *should* work, in theory. But apparently, they don't due to a firmware driver in the TiVo preventing it. If the TiVo unit required a firmware update, then why wouldn't they at LEAST do that during the initial PHONELINE setup? Newer units would/should come with the "newer" firmware to support 802.11g out of the box. Yes, I read some other posts that "...many manufacturers only make drivers for the latest Windows, and don't release specs for their drivers..." Which is bull. You show me a major manufacturer (Linksys, Belkin, Netgear, etc.) 802.11g adapter (USB, PCI, or PCMCIA) and I'll show you an open-source Linux driver for it. From which TiVo *should* be able to add support for it. But they obviously aren't. Way to stay with the technology times, TiVo.
  5. Speaking of wireless, the TiVo unit will only work with WEP - not WPA-PSK. WEP is the original privacy technology for 802.11. It was developed in 1995 and was flawed. It works well enough to stop the honest person. WPA is a set of security features that are well designed. It is based on a 2003 draft of 802.11i, the new security model for 802.11. That was 2 years ago. but, intheir infinite wisdom, TiVo isn't supporting it. Probably because they think it's a closed standard or something. So now, I have to run my entire wireless network in the less-secure WEP because the TiVo doesn't support WPA. Which it should, it's been out long enough. The USB NIC I have supports it. Again, a simple firmware update from TiVo would allow this. The firmware for older TiVo units COULD be done during the initial dialup setup. Newer units would/should ship with the firmware in place already.
  6. I wanted to replace my cable company's digital box with my TiVo unit. But I can't, since the TiVo only works up to ch. 99 - heck, my VCR goes to 125. But if I want to watch HBO or Showtime, I have to use my cable box. But the TiVo guide *shows* HBO and Showtime programming. Talk about misleading.
  7. Speaking of the TiVo guide, I expected something like the TV Guide I see on my PC, using the tvguide.com interactive display. I didn't see it. Granted, I haven't played with the TiVo yet, but I shouldn't have to. It should be right there when I turn it on, letting me pick what channel or show to watch. Maybe there's a way to make it do that. I'll have to play with it and find out.
[sarcasm] All this for $12.95 a month? [/sarcasm] My VCR does all this, and doesn't require a monthly fee. OK, my VCR doesn't have a hard drive, nor does it let me stream movies - but my (modded) Xbox does, and I don't pay anything extra a month for that. So the TiVo isn't selling me on THAT point. Basically, what I have is a digital VCR (aka DVR) that costs me $12.95 a month to use, and will (try to) intelligently record programs it thinks I might like, based on what I tell it to record. And it costs me $155 a year to have it. Another option - get the DVR from my local cable company (Bright House Networks, formerly known as Time Warner Cable), and pay $8.95 a month for it. It does 95% of everything TiVo does (everything except intelligently record programs it thinks I might like, which isn't a feature I'll even use.) And it costs less - at $8.95 a month, that's $107 a year, which is $48 less than TiVo. Or I can save myself the $155 a year, and just use my VCR to tape what I tell it to, like I've been doing for years.


1. Although I agree the system doesn't make it obvious there are ways to do initial setup without a phone line.

2. Again you can, but it isn't obvious... although well explained here on the forums.

3. It should have an ethernet port I agree, but they decided to go with USB back when Series 2 first came out because they wanted you to have the ability to connect not only networks to the box but other things such as hard drives, security dongles and other things which never emerged. In hindsite you would say USB (IMHO) was a mistake but it does offer more flexibility in the future if Tivo decided to take advantage of it.

4. Tivo may very well support 802.11g in the future with a software update, but that remains to be seen. Rumors run rampant here on the board.

5. WPA is fairly new, being in Windows XP for less than a year I believe. WEP it available and works with ALL routers and OSs and WPA still hasn't reached that critical mass. I suspect once we go to 802.11n which uses WPA standard and support for those routers, NICs etc. happens... we will see WPA. This is a consumer product and threats to WEP are more important in industry.

6. The Tivo controls the cable box. The Tivo therefore has the full ability to tape any channel the cable box can tune to. Your understanding of the system is flawed, and your Tivo WILL tape any content you pay for. Nuff said.

7. Tivo comes with 2 types of guide. A superior Tivo branded version that is on by standard when you press the guide button on your remote and an optional "TV Guide style" guide which is a selectable option. You are complaining about something you said you admitedly didn't try to use.

My final point... get a cable company DVR if you think it is more cost effective and Tivo doesn't have features you want... but...

here is what Tivo offers that others don't.

1) Wishlists (search all your channels by actor, movie type, director, keyword etc. not just by exact Title like on a cable company DVR.)

2) Suggestions (you already mentioned this)

3) Remote Scheduling (schedule your Tivo to tape something from anywhere in the world via the internet.)

4) Multi-room viewing (share programs between Tivos if you have multiple units in the household)

5) Multimedia (play your MP3s and view your digitial photos via your TV and home theatre.)

6) Industry leading GUI (the easiest to use DVR on the planet with the most features... bar none.)

In the future:

7) TivotoGo (transfer shows from your Tivo to a laptop or computer for viewing on the go or burning to DVR-R)

All of the above are "free" with your monthly subscription or lifetime fee.

__________________
Tivo Series 2 240080: 12/2003 -> Present (Lifetime, HMO, networked)
Tivo Series 2 240080: 02/2003 -> Present (Lifetime, HMO, networked)
Motorola 6412 DVR: 11/2004 -> Present (2 Tuner Comcast HDTV DVR)
Philips HDR 312-04: 08/2001 -> 02/2003 (Lifetime, traded in for Series 2)
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