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Old 05-24-2005, 02:05 AM   #1 (Print)
TivoNova
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Question Where is the best place to trade TiVo recordings?

I am a newbie. I want to know where is the best place to trade recordings and is there a way to transfer recordings FROM your PC TO your TiVo?

Like, can I download a show then watch it on my TiVo?
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Old 05-24-2005, 05:25 AM   #2 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TivoNova
I am a newbie. I want to know where is the best place to trade recordings and is there a way to transfer recordings FROM your PC TO your TiVo?

Like, can I download a show then watch it on my TiVo?


Trading shows is illegal, and it is a violation of forum rules to use it as a medium for conducting illegal activity.

There is currently no way to transfer recordings back to the Tivo. Although it is widely believed that this feature will be enabled in the future, there is no announced date for it. It is more than likely that the significant barriers are in the legal not the technical realm.

It is also very likely that when such a feature is enabled, that it would prevent you from loading a show that you had not yourself recorded. In all probability, information that identifies you has been interleaved into the video recording, not just simply in the file, but also watermarked in ways that would survive even analog copying.

This would also make it exceptionally unwise to sell or "trade" your copies to others, since seizure of a copy made from yours could lead to cancellation of your service, lawsuits, and possible jail time.

Not to rain too much on your parade- I realize you are new but you just have got to forget about that kind of stuff.

Have a nice day.
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Old 05-24-2005, 07:48 AM   #3 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TivoNova
I am a newbie. I want to know where is the best place to trade recordings and is there a way to transfer recordings FROM your PC TO your TiVo?

Like, can I download a show then watch it on my TiVo?


Sound's like a ReplayTV would have been a better choice for you. "Trading" shows and transferring/streaming shows from PC's are two of it's strongest points.
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Old 05-24-2005, 08:02 AM   #4 (Print)
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Only the older RTV "trade" shows, and they are hard to find. You can get a media mub, Mac Mini or a video adapter for a laptop and use it to watch computer video. I would recomend if you want TV shows to use Bittorrent, as there is a ton of stuff there. You probably can't make a copy of a show to put out there, but you can help by seeding shows that you have downloaded so that others can download them too.

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Old 05-24-2005, 09:04 AM   #5 (Print)
Redux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TivoNova
I am a newbie. I want to know where is the best place to trade recordings and is there a way to transfer recordings FROM your PC TO your TiVo?

Like, can I download a show then watch it on my TiVo?


As has been pointed out to you, the trading activity is illegal.

But assuming you have a ".ty" Tivo file (not the newer tivo2go format) in your possession legally, putting it back into the Tivo is quite simple. A program to accomplish this, with a link to it, was fully discussed on this forum about 2-3 years ago. I believe it was called "mfs_ftp_insert". The program is an ftp host, Tivo-resident, so some "hacking" is required to install it. The hacking that would be required has been exhaustively discussed on this forum (one recent thread has literally hundreds of messages).

On a more brute force level, obviously any video can be inserted into a Stand Alone Tivo: home videos, or any material you own, through the composite or s-video inputs.
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Old 05-24-2005, 09:32 AM   #6 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigg
Only the older RTV "trade" shows, and they are hard to find.>snip


Not entirely true. Though not a trivial process, the current models can be hacked to enable all the functions of the older units.
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Old 05-25-2005, 08:42 AM   #7 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Trading shows is illegal, and it is a violation of forum rules to use it as a medium for conducting illegal activity.




Just curious....how is trading shows illegal? I can understand selling/buying shows....but trading is no diffent than a friend asking me to tape a show cuz he wont make it home in time.....

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Old 05-25-2005, 08:54 AM   #8 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjam2jab
Just curious....how is trading shows illegal? I can understand selling/buying shows....but trading is no diffent than a friend asking me to tape a show cuz he wont make it home in time.....


and guess what - that is technically illegal (though for some OTA stuff it is not) just like jaywalking is, just not considered very heinous.

but when many people start trading shows around and premium channels like HBO get involved then the content providers take noticeas their content is floating around for free.

so this forum wants to be a PUBLIC place for TiVo discussion and whatnot and has a well advised policy to just avoid the actual trading of shows subject altogether. And TiVo inc does not want to become known as the enabler of show trading so does things to make it more cumbersome.

What this means is that if you want to rtade shows there are easier than a stock TiVo ways and a google search on bittorrent will find the sites to start exploring.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:04 AM   #9 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjam2jab
Just curious....how is trading shows illegal? I can understand selling/buying shows....but trading is no diffent than a friend asking me to tape a show cuz he wont make it home in time.....


There's a common misconception that copyright law is about the money that a copyright thief makes. It's actually about the damages that the copyright holder suffers. Plus, for a registered copyright, the holder gets to sue for the statutory fine ($100K per incident) plus court/attorney fees, plus "implied damages" and I think there's something else I'm forgetting.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:17 AM   #10 (Print)
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Makes no sense to me for shows on ABC for example. Lets say I Tivo the LOST finale tonight, and one of you here missed it. So I transfer my show to the PC, then FTP it to you. It has everything the original had, including commercials. Now, how did the copyright holders for ABC or LOST suffer? The only thing that happened was that the person that missed the episode got to see it. How terrible.

I can understand how pay channels like HBO are a different story.

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Old 05-25-2005, 10:41 AM   #11 (Print)
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Originally Posted by jkalnin
Now, how did the copyright holders for ABC or LOST suffer? The only thing that happened was that the person that missed the episode got to see it. How terrible.


Well the bottom line is that the copyright holder has the right to decide that. They might agree with you, but then, maybe the commercial was time-sensitive, or maybe they feel there's a higher likelihood that the receiver of a show provided in this way won't watch the commercials. Or maybe they'll just decide to not demonstrate any actual damages and just go for the statutory fees and court costs.

Even a person who has a picture on a web page that anyone can see or download for free still has copyright protection so it would be in your best interest to ask before you "help him" by redistributing it.
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Old 05-25-2005, 11:01 AM   #12 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redux
As has been pointed out to you, the trading activity is illegal.

It is not clear to me that is illegal, and it hasn't been tested in any court I know of - however it is against Tivo's service agreement and is against the forum rules.

But the biggest deterent is that it would be a pain in the ass. Either you'd have to hack your Tivo and share unprotected content, you'd have to share your MAK if you're using Tivo To Go and .tivo files, or you'd have to convert those .tivo files to something else.

The whole point of having Tivo is so I don't miss anything - I guess it's possible to still miss something I want to see, but I doubt any show is compelling enough for me to jump through so many hoops of questionable activity.

And the short answer to the OP's second question, no you can't put shows back onto your Tivo unit. As was mentioned, ReplayTV does have that feature and is generally more open to working with the video files.

Last edited by davezatz : 05-25-2005 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 05-25-2005, 11:06 AM   #13 (Print)
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It doesn't matter if the copyright holder has incurred actual damages or not, the fact is, unless you have excplicitly ageed to terms to do so, you have no right whatsoever to distribute copyrighed content.

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Old 05-25-2005, 11:43 AM   #14 (Print)
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Davezatz - There are no hoops to jump through if I burn my Tivo files to DVD using MyDVD software. The final product is a DVD that can be played by anyone with no need for a MAK.

Classicsat - I understand the law, all I am doing is questioning it.

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Old 05-25-2005, 11:49 AM   #15 (Print)
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We need a place to trade tivo dvd's that we burn in our dvd-r units. They don't use the MAK and I don't think that there has been anything said about trading dvd's from these units not being legit?

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Old 05-25-2005, 12:05 PM   #16 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Well the bottom line is that the copyright holder has the right to decide that. They might agree with you, but then, maybe the commercial was time-sensitive, or maybe they feel there's a higher likelihood that the receiver of a show provided in this way won't watch the commercials. Or maybe they'll just decide to not demonstrate any actual damages and just go for the statutory fees and court costs.

Even a person who has a picture on a web page that anyone can see or download for free still has copyright protection so it would be in your best interest to ask before you "help him" by redistributing it.


there is also the broadcaster's right to their business model of having eyeballs watch the show on their channel at the time. lots of commercials are time sensitive and the ads are geared around bringing sales in at specific times of the year etc etc...

it always amuses me how people will take the small simple act of making one DVD complete with commercials and assume that it applies to what IP law was designed to protect. By your standard I could make a tape of a radio show featuring matchbox 20 and give it to my friend since he was not at the radio at the time. Of course (assuming decent quality recording) it would actually mean he and you may not buy the CD to get the songs now. How is television different , especially in this day and age of shows on DVD ?

NOTE - how many bit torrents of shows keep the commercials in them
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Old 05-25-2005, 12:07 PM   #17 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stainless Steele
We need a place to trade tivo dvd's that we burn in our dvd-r units. They don't use the MAK and I don't think that there has been anything said about trading dvd's from these units not being legit?
In FCC publications, Tivo noted that MPAA had reviewed their security mechanisms and had made no objections to them.

I would not be too sure that information that could be used to trace a copy back to you were not embedded every video that originated in a Tivo box.

Both Broadcom and Sonic (via Authorscript) had a hand in the security mechanisms. This was not some half assed scheme that some Tivo developer came up with at 2AM during a sunday night brilliant hack session. There were many bright individuals involved looking at this issue, and it is patently obvious that the security mechanism would have to survive transcription. There are several well known approaches to this problem and many are difficult to detect.

I would not at all be surprised if there weren't user information watermarked into the video stream itself so that it would survive even analog transciptions. It's not rocket science. To visualize how this can be done, you shift some colors in a corner of the video. Just 96 of those variations and your Mak has been recorded, and the variations will carry through vhs dubs of your dvd, transcode to a PSP Mpeg4 file, etc. It is trivial to do this sort of thing in the encoders, and it is a well known technique.

So think again.

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 05-25-2005 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Zero jumped in and context gone- needed quote
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Old 05-25-2005, 01:00 PM   #18 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkalnin
Davezatz - There are no hoops to jump through if I burn my Tivo files to DVD using MyDVD software. The final product is a DVD that can be played by anyone with no need for a MAK.

I was assuming the original poster wanted to swap digital files. I suppose he could have meant where in his neighborhood, rather than where on the Internet as a location to swap shows... but I doubt it. Though I do have fond memories of meeting in the middle school cafeteria with baseball cards to trade. Maybe we should all show up at Starbucks one evening with a spindle of DVDs.
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Old 05-25-2005, 01:45 PM   #19 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkalnin
Makes no sense to me for shows on ABC for example. Lets say I Tivo the LOST finale tonight, and one of you here missed it. So I transfer my show to the PC, then FTP it to you. It has everything the original had, including commercials. Now, how did the copyright holders for ABC or LOST suffer? The only thing that happened was that the person that missed the episode got to see it. How terrible.

I can understand how pay channels like HBO are a different story.


See. Now your making a mistake. Up until all these cool shows weren't being sold on DVD you might have been right. But now, they are offering the show on DVD, so if you miss it you wait until the rerun shows, or you buy their DVD.

Any sharing in any way no matter how innocuous is in the MPAA's view theft. This includes recording a show and taking it to another room in your house to view. The fact that the home recording act protects you is irrelevant in the eyes of the MPAA. You are a thief. Personally I steal from them all the time when I move a show from the bedroom to the den and vice versa.

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Last edited by Stormspace : 05-25-2005 at 01:46 PM. Reason: Edited for clairity
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Old 05-25-2005, 01:52 PM   #20 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
In FCC publications, Tivo noted that MPAA had reviewed their security mechanisms and had made no objections to them.

I would not be too sure that information that could be used to trace a copy back to you were not embedded every video that originated in a Tivo box.

Both Broadcom and Sonic (via Authorscript) had a hand in the security mechanisms. This was not some half assed scheme that some Tivo developer came up with at 2AM during a sunday night brilliant hack session. There were many bright individuals involved looking at this issue, and it is patently obvious that the security mechanism would have to survive transcription. There are several well known approaches to this problem and many are difficult to detect.

I would not at all be surprised if there weren't user information watermarked into the video stream itself so that it would survive even analog transciptions. It's not rocket science. To visualize how this can be done, you shift some colors in a corner of the video. Just 96 of those variations and your Mak has been recorded, and the variations will carry through vhs dubs of your dvd, transcode to a PSP Mpeg4 file, etc. It is trivial to do this sort of thing in the encoders, and it is a well known technique.

So think again.


I agree that some sort of watermark is likely, but trading DVD's among friends is no different than the video tape swaps that have been happening since the beginning of the VCR era. Unless one of these DVD's made it to the internet the user would likely avoid any heat. The moral-trade only with friends and family.

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Old 05-25-2005, 01:58 PM   #21 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
The moral-trade only with friends and family.
I wonder if/how anyone is cracking down on this. Not so long ago I bought VCDs of entire seasons of animated X-Men and The Tick on ebay. Actually if those dudes got sued, it should be for making such low quality crappy recordings...
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Old 05-25-2005, 02:02 PM   #22 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
I wonder if/how anyone is cracking down on this. Not so long ago I bought VCDs of entire seasons of animated X-Men and The Tick on ebay. Actually if those dudes got sued, it should be for making such low quality crappy recordings...


I use VCD all the time. It's a great way to make a show portable at little expense or to use to offload from the TiVo to make room for more recordings.

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Old 05-25-2005, 06:56 PM   #23 (Print)
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Trading shows is illegal
Unless the copyright holder says it's OK, which a few have done (e.g., some PBS shows)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjam2jab
Just curious....how is trading shows illegal? I can understand selling/buying shows....but trading is no diffent than a friend asking me to tape a show cuz he wont make it home in time.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
and guess what - that is technically illegal (though for some OTA stuff it is not)
I imagine it would be OK if your friend then came over to your house to watch the show and you never watch it yourself. Then, you've simply timeshifted the show for your friend with no distribution of the VHS tape. I think.
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Old 05-25-2005, 07:55 PM   #24 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
I wonder if/how anyone is cracking down on this. Not so long ago I bought VCDs of entire seasons of animated X-Men and The Tick on ebay. Actually if those dudes got sued, it should be for making such low quality crappy recordings...


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And you have the audacity to diss ME for (unintentionally and unknowingly) recommending K-Lite codecs? Quite a ride, this community, I'd agree

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Old 05-25-2005, 09:54 PM   #25 (Print)
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Geez, I just wanted to know where I could get episodes I missed or something. Like, Las Vegas and 24 come on at the same time and I TiVo 24 and watch Las Vegas, (OMG, LIVE!) through my VCR when I am home. My VCR has started to spit out tapes, (the reason I got my TiVo in the first place.) SO I wanted to TiVo 24 and get Las Vegas from someone else, like mrjam2jab mentioned, like someone taping it for me. That's illegal?

I wasn't even thinking about trading shows like trading cards or something.

So funny how a simple question got so much discussion. All INTERESTING of course, but funny.

Thanks for the hacking info though. Haven't really tried hacking my Series 2 yet, or do I know if I will. But thanks for the info.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:15 PM   #26 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TivoNova
Geez, I just wanted to know where I could get episodes I missed or something. Like, Las Vegas and 24 come on at the same time and I TiVo 24 and watch Las Vegas, (OMG, LIVE!) through my VCR when I am home. My VCR has started to spit out tapes, (the reason I got my TiVo in the first place.) SO I wanted to TiVo 24 and get Las Vegas from someone else, like mrjam2jab mentioned, like someone taping it for me. That's illegal?
It's a natural enough thing to want. No, it's not clearly legal. Complain to your congresscritters.
Quote:
So funny how a simple question got so much discussion. All INTERESTING of course, but funny
It's a rather sensitive issue here since it has direct impact on what TiVo can and cannot do.
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Old 05-25-2005, 10:57 PM   #27 (Print)
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Oh - and get that cat off your head. Everyone knows cats are evil - and that one is controlling your thoughts

And yeah - definitely complain to your congress'critters'!

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Old 05-26-2005, 06:33 AM   #28 (Print)
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It got me thinking- what to tell them?

How about the following:

"Dear Congress Critter,

Pioneering companies like Tivo Corporation cannot innovate due to the extreme danger of being sued into oblivion for making a mistep.

In the interest of preserving both the rights of intellectual copyright owners, and the interest of maintaining american industry's technical edge in innovation, we propose the following:

For the following 8 years, lawsuits concerning making illegal copies of video filed against domestic vendors and manufacturers of video copying devices shall have temporary limits placed on them. On having lost such a lawsuit the courts may only reqiore defendants to pay money for actual lost revenue that the victim proves they suffered. Defendants shall not have to pay plaintiff's legal costs or punitiive awards.

This moratorium on excessive rulings in such cases shall expire after 8 years unless renewed, and plaintiffs shall not be able to later sue for violations which occurred while the moratorium was in place.
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Old 05-26-2005, 08:07 AM   #29 (Print)
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The whole copyright system is totally screwed up. First I would like to say that I would decrypt a file and put it up on my FTP server and share it. It would have commericials, and it would be of low quality, so no one would ever put it on torrent anyway. I don't even see individuals being sued for the downloading or distribution of tv shows. The porblem is, if that person COULD HAVE received the show (I get FOX, I missed Family Guy), and then they download the show (I got Family Guy off of bittorrent), I COULD HAVE gotten that show legally. I COULD HAVE recorded it with a TV card in my PC, I COULD HAVE taken the commericials out, and I COULD HAVE then encoded it to DiVX and put it on my laptop, which is TOTALLY LEGAL UNDER FAIR USE. Although trading them online is clearly illegal and also clearly is perfectly fine morally and ethically to anyone with their head on straight, the MPAA would have a harder time proving what actually happened and lost revenue. Although still the MPAA's fault, movie swapping is a lot easier to prove losses with, even though movie priating is on the rise, just as DVD keep going up and up and up.

Basically, if a peice of work is priated on a large scale (Episode 3 50-100K downloaders or more) that means whoever is making the movie is not releasing it in way that is desireable to their customer. If LucasFilm wanted to not have pirating, Episode 3 should have been available on DVD and on Movielink on the release day. I can guarantee that if they had it legally available on realease day, people would not have pirated the low qualtiy workprint that they did.

I have no problem prosecuting bootleggers who are selling DVDs on the street for $5. They ARE stealing from the copyright holder of that content. When people like me casually download a movie or two and then buy some at Walmart. I am a CUSTOMER of the MPAA and they should NOT treat me as a theif. I am not a theif. If they had a subscription service available that allowed me to download TV shows, or a way to get ON Demand service that is not a rip off, then I would use it. Until then, however, I will get content over bittorrent.

The next thing, is the MPAA is constantly crying poor. The MPAA might really be suffering, they probably are not, but they are the problem. The movie studios are spending so much money on making movies with totally stupid special effects that they are making bad movies. If a movie is not making money, they obviously spent too much money on it, or else it sucks. There is some open source movie coming out, I suspect we will see a lot of movies that are made for bittorrent by people who can make really good movies, but who are not supported by the MPAA. Anyone can make a feature film with say $50K. That amount of money could be easily gotten in porduct placement in a movie should it reach a leage audience. Then with the power of Bittorrent, they could distribute it for almost nothing. I have a feeling the MPAA will not change to suit their customers and if they do not they will go down. Eventually, I expect the only standard broadcast type content we will see will be Sports or News. Everything else is not time snesitive and will be distributed on bittorrent. It will be funded by tiny product placement funds, and it will be better content, as it is the content that people want, good, creative, artistic, free content, not the same piggy, over special effexted, and over commercialized. TV should be made for the viewer, and with bittorrent, there will be an unlimited amount of channel space. Anyone will be able to make any show they want and see if it can become famous. With better broadband, any show will download in less than its own length.

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Old 05-26-2005, 09:52 AM   #30 (Print)
dgh
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 4,878
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigg
When people like me casually download a movie or two and then buy some at Walmart. I am a CUSTOMER of the MPAA and they should NOT treat me as a theif. I am not a theif.


Those aren't mutually exclusive. You're both. I'm sure that every thief in the world buys things on occasion.
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