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Old 04-15-2005, 10:02 AM   #31 (Print)
cwoody222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
Hmmm...this is news to me. Let me do some digging this morning and see what's up.

Pony


THANK YOU for chiming in, Pony. The silence was becoming deafening.

TiVo desperately needs to say something on this issue, whether good or bad news.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:02 AM   #32 (Print)
Ladd Morse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
Hmmm...this is news to me. Let me do some digging this morning and see what's up.
ahhhh possible Official News(TM) upcoming. Looking forward to it.

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Old 04-15-2005, 10:09 AM   #33 (Print)
Johnny Mnemonic
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Tivo Pony

Tivo Pony:

I appreciate your investigation of this announcement. Personally, I'm reserving judgement until more details can emerge; perhaps the CEO was not aware of the current development stage of the product for Macs, for example.

However, if you do find that you have to confirm that Mac development has been stopped, I think that there will be hell to pay.

1) Mac users will actively attempt to break the Tivo DRM just to enable shipping functionality. Once this cat's out of the bag, it will damage Tivo's position in general, as it's likely the same methods will be applicable to other platforms. I haven't, personally, begun any research/reverse-engineering since I was expecting, and I think reasonably so, a solution from Tivo. If those expectations were belied, it's ON, bro.

2) If you confirm that there is nothing coming for the Mac, I'm going to research alternatives. That includes ComCast's system, and/or rolling my own. I can guarantee that my next purchase won't be a Tivo. And I will no longer recommend your product to anyone else I know, Mac user or not.

3) I have long viewed support for the Mac as the "canary-in-the-coalmine" of financial indicators for a company. It's interesting to me that for a great many start-ups, if they have Mac support, they tend to be around for the long term. Whereas, if their vision doesn't include the Mac, they seem to vanish. Not 100% true, but I think it's saying something that even Microsoft supports the Mac, and they do it well, even.

I dunno why this exactly is--but I think it means that if there's enough room in the development budget to also develop for the Mac, that the firm is doing well and can invest in things, which perhaps having limited appeal, provide other benefits (such as clean code, mind share, etc.) Whereas, if every dollar spent has to be justified with a 300% return, then you're no longer cutting fat, but starting to cut bone.

My point is: if Tivo is starting to cut away projects that have been publicly announced, I think that's also known as a "spiral."

Last edited by Johnny Mnemonic : 04-15-2005 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:17 AM   #34 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDriveX
I find it hard to believe if the above facts are true because they came from TiVo representatives that it will actually take approx. 3 years to develop and produce a Mac version of TiVo2Go. No DRM or software takes that long to create (unless you count Longhorn and this isn't NEARLY as complex as that). They need to establish a business partnership with either Apple or even the open source VLC or MPlayer people to allow this to work on the Mac. Or they are just looking at cutting costs, which sucks for us, but as a public company they have a responsibility to look after the people they really care for: Their Shareholders.


the CFO did not say they would keep developing and working for two years on TTG for Mac. He might have said Two years becasue that is how long it will take apple to make the next OS that they will now have DRM in(note pure speculation)

so I do not see how you showed they deceived anyone. abck on 1/20/05 we have the statement from TiVoBill saying they did not know if TTG for Mac would be out when TTG released on 01/06/05. so up to that point it was an unknown thing.

now if we take TiVoPony's post that he had not heard of the situation the CFO remarked on, then this whole "To expensive" may indeed be news to many folks inside TiVo and the CFO recently came to that conclusion (perhaps while doing the budget for this year). I still have yet to detect a pattern of deception by TiVo and it will take more than what is known by us now to show there was one.

what I detect is a pattern of a development project hitting a brick wall and management going into fire bucket mode to try and solve the problems.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:29 AM   #35 (Print)
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Angry El Gato anyone?

Add me to the list of disgruntled. I've been very impressed with Tivo, but to be strung out this way regarding TTG for Mac is souring me quickly.

El Gato is looking better all the time...
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:35 AM   #36 (Print)
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Note Well - time to look at alternatives

Tivo seems to be going down the well-worn path others have gone down.

Remember Pointcast? You might or might not. These guys are just one example. They had a real interesting product back in the 90s that beamed data to PCs as a screensaver. They worked on both predominate platforms at the time (Windows and Mac Classic). Sometime in the mid-90s, they made the decision to cease Mac development and go strictly to Windows. I remember calling them (even though I wasn't particularly a huge fan) to ask them what the heck they were thinking and why they would basically seed their business or potential business to their competitor (even though they didn't know MS was their competitor at the time as many companies who have 'partnered' with MS eventually figured out). After Pointcast became chained to Windows, they became vulnerable and without a niche, so they faded into insignificance. There are many other examples of this.

Tivo is well on this road. The marketing people and the number-bots looks at the Windows marketshare and feel it is the best bang for the buck to program for Windows rather than just writing good solutions in an environment that allows them to be flexible and nimble to any environment and leave themselves with competitive options.

I guess Tivo just doesn't get it anymore. They are really outside their niche now in doing something like TTG and it shows. To isolate themselves to their competitors product (Windows) is crazy. They are essentially moving into their competitors home turf exclusively and will never have any control or leverage. Their competitor owns the floor, walls and ceiling and has more money than god.

I have no sympathy for companies who do this sort of thing and screw themselves, their loyal customer-base and intentional sabotage their options to compete and innovate. They could have done this whole thing differently and completly cross-platform.

They have the web interface to Tivo - why not use that as the transfer mechanism alone? No client software that they have to support (and basically support Windows). They can make the DRM mechanism work via a transaction back to their servers nightly or something at the time of the download. They can use VLC on the client side.

But no, rather than think about their product, they have chosen to develop Windows software - which is truly not their niche and the product they actually had done a good job at suffers (massive pixelization problems, speed delays, and just a bad experience now).

I gotta go hit the MythTV and Freevo sites again so I can get some decent control and what is seeming more and more along the lines of what I bought Tivo for back in the day. I personally referred about 10 people to Tivo over the last couple of years (whether I got credits or not). I am no longer doing that.
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Old 04-15-2005, 10:48 AM   #37 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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to all those who call me aplogist or zealot - I agree with everything in mergy's post. I hope TiVo picks its way through this minefield

except
Quote:
Originally Posted by mergy
They have the web interface to Tivo - why not use that as the transfer mechanism alone? No client software that they have to support (and basically support Windows). They can make the DRM mechanism work via a transaction back to their servers nightly or something at the time of the download. They can use VLC on the client side.


this could not technically be done and still allow for TiVoToGo to work on laptops.
Now doing away with DRM altogether adn using the web interface would have been very elegant and simple but TiVo has a justified fear of getting thwarted by the content providers if they did away with DRM. And for DRM to work it has to move with the file and if it had to access the interent to play , even if only nightly it just is not ToGo. The content providers were fighting TiVo on their sharing content between TiVos over the internet and the DRM is what let TiVo prevail. A watermark alone would not do it.
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Old 04-15-2005, 11:10 AM   #38 (Print)
mergy
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Ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
to all those who call me aplogist or zealot - I agree with everything in mergy's post. I hope TiVo picks its way through this minefield

except


this could not technically be done and still allow for TiVoToGo to work on laptops.
Now doing away with DRM altogether adn using the web interface would have been very elegant and simple but TiVo has a justified fear of getting thwarted by the content providers if they did away with DRM. And for DRM to work it has to move with the file and if it had to access the interent to play , even if only nightly it just is not ToGo. The content providers were fighting TiVo on their sharing content between TiVos over the internet and the DRM is what let TiVo prevail. A watermark alone would not do it.



OK. My point in this regard was really to think in terms of getting OUT of the client software business in general. Tivo should focus on their product and the features of the product and not get bogged-down with external issues and mistakes like the ones they make that distract them from maintaining decent quality and innovation in areas they still somewhat control.

I am sure they can wrap the file in some manner so when an individual downloads it, there is some sort of key system but it doesn't seem that channel was even thought of and now locking themselves into Windows basically marries them to the one monolithic organization that can pump money into just about anything long enough to eventually get Joe six-pack to buy because they become the only game in town. Think WalMart.

Life goes on though even though companies do not. The DVR will continue on and improve with or without our myopic friends in Alviso.
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Old 04-15-2005, 11:48 AM   #39 (Print)
cptodd
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Well if this is true we still have to determine who is "to blame" here. I can certainly see Apple not wanting to give up the goods if goods need to be given up in order for TiVo To Go to work on the Mac (what those goods might or might not be is just PURE speculation on my part). Apple can be VERY closed at times especially when they have or are going to develop a competing product. Let's all calm down and see what happens.
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Old 04-15-2005, 11:51 AM   #40 (Print)
cwoody222
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Well then TiVo shouldn't have put themselves in a position for their product to be dependent on another company.

TiVo should have developed this 100% themselves so only they could determine which OS's would work.
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Old 04-15-2005, 12:02 PM   #41 (Print)
mergy
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Again, others have / will do what Tivo is doing

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwoody222
Well then TiVo shouldn't have put themselves in a position for their product to be dependent on another company.

TiVo should have developed this 100% themselves so only they could determine which OS's would work.


Palm (or PalmOne or PalmSource or whatever the heck they are calling themselves this week) is another one. See any resemblance?

1. Had the innovative product
2. Had platform options and duality (Palm Desktop Mac / Windows)
3. Started to get competition from MS
4. Abandoned Mac support (basically a while back but Apple paid them to come out with the last version)
5. Develop client software only for Windows (basically)
6. Getting their ass handed to them from super-subsidized products from MS
7. Change your company name a bunch of times to try and break the brand baggage.

Tivo is probably at step 5 or 6

(oh and I use Palm too BTW and was an early adopter of it).

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Old 04-15-2005, 12:05 PM   #42 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mergy
OK. My point in this regard was really to think in terms of getting OUT of the client software business in general. Tivo should focus on their product and the features of the product and not get bogged-down with external issues and mistakes like the ones they make that distract them from maintaining decent quality and innovation in areas they still somewhat control.


point well taken, and it is basically what CWoody22 is saying. The USB dongle would be the thing that would have allowed this wrapper and just some minimal code to make use of it. A lot of feedback from here to not use the dongle as something that would be a PITA to keep track of and have on hand. Perhaps also TiVo discovered it was easy to mimic or break, but then again the DRM used on the Windows was broken within a couple days of it being public simply by making use of the directshow in other software - so that was not exactly a super strong replacement.
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Old 04-15-2005, 12:25 PM   #43 (Print)
iDriveX
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Why not just have the TiVo software itself on the TiVo Box encode the DRM onto a show while it's recording, then use the web interface as the transfer protocol and then HAND the DRM to executives at Microsoft and Apple and tell them to build it into WMP and Quicktime, respectively. Or if they didn't want to, offer it as a plug-in download, plenty of third party plug-ins out there.

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Old 04-15-2005, 12:46 PM   #44 (Print)
Johnny Mnemonic
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I've seen this pattern 100 times

Quote:
Originally Posted by mergy
Palm (or PalmOne or PalmSource or whatever the heck they are calling themselves this week) is another one. See any resemblance?

1. Had the innovative product
2. Had platform options and duality (Palm Desktop Mac / Windows)
3. Started to get competition from MS
4. Abandoned Mac support (basically a while back but Apple paid them to come out with the last version)
5. Develop client software only for Windows (basically)
6. Getting their ass handed to them from super-subsidized products from MS
7. Change your company name a bunch of times to try and break the brand baggage.

Tivo is probably at step 5 or 6

(oh and I use Palm too BTW and was an early adopter of it).


As a follower of the Mac market, I've seen this pattern 100 times. Some CEO comes to power over a company with a Mac/Win product, thinks he'll be smart by dropping Mac support for their innovative product because he believes CNET when they say how small the Mac market is--but then 18 mos. later can't seem to get any traction in the market with their products, no buzz, no word of mouth. Company dies, and they stand around scratching their heads.

Isn't it interesting how the big, successful software companies have Mac products? How the struggling ones don't? Maybe cause and effect is being reversed...it just might be that Mac support leads to success, rather than is a luxury of success.

Or it might be that once you tie your software product to Microsoft, that they then have you by the balls, and Microsoft knows it. Then you sell your product to them at a discount, or they change the APIs and make their own thing.

I think there's no clearer sign that Tivo is in deep sh*t than this reversal. When was the last time you saw someone use a Palm? Tivo is 18 mos away from being the same basement.
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Old 04-15-2005, 01:00 PM   #45 (Print)
mergy
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Yep -

Funny too that these companies we have seen crash and burn when they go down this road, they don't even see what they company they are losing to does.

MS Business Unit (does Mac Office, etc.) innovates and actually brings value into the Windows Office division. MS has actually used platform duality as an advantage because they have been able to get new features from MBU for office stuff, then bring it over to the Windows side. This is why the last few version of Mac Office have always been much better than the Windows counterparts (unless you are an Access-fanatic).

I just have never understood why you cut what advantages you have (does Windows Media Center even know about Macs?) to basically lower yourself to a playing area that your competitor OWNS? Not to mention use the competitors software (WMP, etc). Maybe it is just that they are hoping to be gobbled-up or something which is a decent strategy if you cannot execute anymore - which seems to be where Tivo is at now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mnemonic
As a follower of the Mac market, I've seen this pattern 100 times. Some CEO comes to power over a company with a Mac/Win product, thinks he'll be smart by dropping Mac support for their innovative product because he believes CNET when they say how small the Mac market is--but then 18 mos. later can't seem to get any traction in the market with their products, no buzz, no word of mouth. Company dies, and they stand around scratching their heads.

Isn't it interesting how the big, successful software companies have Mac products? How the struggling ones don't? Maybe cause and effect is being reversed...it just might be that Mac support leads to success, rather than is a luxury of success.

Or it might be that once you tie your software product to Microsoft, that they then have you by the balls, and Microsoft knows it. Then you sell your product to them at a discount, or they change the APIs and make their own thing.

I think there's no clearer sign that Tivo is in deep sh*t than this reversal. When was the last time you saw someone use a Palm? Tivo is 18 mos away from being the same basement.

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Old 04-15-2005, 01:09 PM   #46 (Print)
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Remember Myst URU?

Originally it was to be online, sorry but no Mac version. Then they dumped the online version for a PC version but said, hey, they'll be a Mac version now. Finally, they 'fessed up months later and said, nope, no Mac version after all. Sorry. I'm still ticked that I can't have the whole Myst series on Mac. (Yes, I know technically URU isn't really a part of the Myst series)

At least Myst 4 made it to Mac.... there's still hope for them.
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Old 04-15-2005, 01:12 PM   #47 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDriveX
Why not just have the TiVo software itself on the TiVo Box encode the DRM onto a show while it's recording, then use the web interface as the transfer protocol and then HAND the DRM to executives at Microsoft and Apple and tell them to build it into WMP and Quicktime, respectively. Or if they didn't want to, offer it as a plug-in download, plenty of third party plug-ins out there.
I suspect this is very close to what TiVo is doing. The files are currently coming off TiVo encrypted, and being decoded by the DirectShow filter supplied by TiVo on the Windows machine. Evidently there isn't a place in the current (or future) Apple OS for such a filter/low-level plug-in.

To be a true plug-in, TiVo would have to write a media player(s) themselves that could run under both Windows and MacOS. That's harder.

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Old 04-15-2005, 01:58 PM   #48 (Print)
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It'd be great if TiVo could license the FairPlay technology in iTunes and just work that into Quicktime. There's a "low-level DRM-based" codec right there!

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Old 04-15-2005, 01:59 PM   #49 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDriveX
It'd be great if TiVo could license the FairPlay technology in iTunes and just work that into Quicktime. There's a "low-level DRM-based" codec right there!


it would be great if a lot of companies could license fairplay technology
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Old 04-15-2005, 03:33 PM   #50 (Print)
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For emphasis, part of TiVo Bill's quote was : "It wasn't known until the very end if there would be a Mac version at launch time or not."

If the Mac version was not almost complete then it would have been known well before launch if the product development process was being managed properly. So what I said before stands.

I can't even begin to understand why Tiger is brought up in reference to delaying development or whether TiVo wanted to comit to supporting future Mac OS. Would it be excusable for TiVo not to have been aware that Apple would be coming out with a new OS?

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Old 04-15-2005, 03:53 PM   #51 (Print)
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I've traded emails with Dave Courtney, and here's the scoop...

His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.

We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though.

Cheers,
Pony

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Old 04-15-2005, 03:55 PM   #52 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
I suspect this is very close to what TiVo is doing. The files are currently coming off TiVo encrypted, and being decoded by the DirectShow filter supplied by TiVo on the Windows machine. Evidently there isn't a place in the current (or future) Apple OS for such a filter/low-level plug-in.

To be a true plug-in, TiVo would have to write a media player(s) themselves that could run under both Windows and MacOS. That's harder.


This is a very apt observation.

Pony

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Old 04-15-2005, 03:57 PM   #53 (Print)
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Quicktime runs under both Mac and Windows. Why reinvent the wheel?

There are QT plugins AFAIK.
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Old 04-15-2005, 03:59 PM   #54 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
I've traded emails with Dave Courtney, and here's the scoop...

His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.

We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though.

Cheers,
Pony


What isn't portrayed accurately? That TTGMac is several years away or we're not working in it due to it being too expensive. Sorry to say but nothing at all has been clarified here.
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Old 04-15-2005, 04:01 PM   #55 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
I've traded emails with Dave Courtney, and here's the scoop...

His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.

We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though.

Cheers,
Pony


Pony,

Could you share with us what his comments actually were, if they were misquoted in the article? What did he actually say, if he didn't utter the quotes attributed to him?

The actual person who posed the question to him at the speech has posted in these forums, and he has stated his opinion that the reporter represented Mr. Courtney's comments accurately. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Courtney really didn't talk about it costing too much to implement. Is it true that he didn't?

Additionally, in reply to your second post, a Mac user might wonder why, given TiVo's history of strong Macintosh support, TiVo would choose to wrap its .tivo files in an encryption method that so obviously would not make it conducive to Macintosh playback. I'm just saying.
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Old 04-15-2005, 04:34 PM   #56 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unix_Beard
What isn't portrayed accurately? That TTGMac is several years away or we're not working in it due to it being too expensive. Sorry to say but nothing at all has been clarified here.

TiVoPony,
I'm the same guy that asked about HME on the mailing list the other day, if it wasn't obvious. I appreciate all the leg work you've always done, and the effort you put into that request and today's issue. But I have to agree with Unix_Beard here. I understand that you can't comment on unreleased and/or unnannounced plans, but there is still a great deal of ambiguity surrounding the issue. Would it be possible to explain further?

Thanks,
Cassidy

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Old 04-15-2005, 04:54 PM   #57 (Print)
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Ok how do you "work toward support"? Is that the same as working to support it? or working to find a way to support it? or working to find a solution to impliment?
I am confused which is not unusual with ambiguous words... lol
just curious....
hawk
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Old 04-15-2005, 05:02 PM   #58 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoPony
I've traded emails with Dave Courtney, and here's the scoop...

His comments were not represented accurately at all in that article.

We value Mac enthusiasts who own TiVo DVR's. And as we've previously stated, we're working towards support that would bring TiVoToGo to the Macintosh platform.

We have not yet announced a timeline as to when that service may be available though.

Cheers,
Pony



I hate to be the guy that wants even MORE clarification but this is very ambiguous! In my mind, the only reason that there hasn't been a definitive answer to the "When and How far along are you" question is because you would like to string Macintosh users to continue supporting TiVo at the prospect of a product that will/may eventually come out. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to squash all the bad PR in the Apple community by coming out and saying "Here is what we are working on, It's definitely in development, unfortunately the time table is x, but please be patient with us". With an answer like that we can trust that you are telling us the truth, the time table may not be pleasant but atleast we know that it's coming.

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Old 04-15-2005, 05:09 PM   #59 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk4hire
Ok how do you "work toward support"? Is that the same as working to support it? or working to find a way to support it? or working to find a solution to impliment?
I am confused which is not unusual with ambiguous words... lol
just curious....
hawk


Maybe it means working towards support from other companies....Like Apple? Maybe Apple has this master plan of causing massive disdain in the TiVo community with Apple users and at the height of this disdain they will release a DVR and there will be a mass migration! And that's why the TiVo CEO Ramsey left because Steve Jobs used his powers of persuasion to control him from stepping down to cause panic and anarchy! OMG STEVE JOBS IS LIKE EMPEROR PALPATINE!

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Old 04-15-2005, 05:14 PM   #60 (Print)
mergy
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I think -

Under the Tivo people's vague comments, I think we could also say that the people in the thread are also working on a path to getting Mac support.

Anyway, doesn't make sense to kick the Tivo marketing people around since they probably don't fully know where the company is going either. The CFO knows where the money is going (and NOT going). Pretty simple - no money towards Mac development on new features = no new Mac features.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDriveX
I hate to be the guy that wants even MORE clarification but this is very ambiguous! In my mind, the only reason that there hasn't been a definitive answer to the "When and How far along are you" question is because you would like to string Macintosh users to continue supporting TiVo at the prospect of a product that will/may eventually come out. I can't see any reason why you wouldn't want to squash all the bad PR in the Apple community by coming out and saying "Here is what we are working on, It's definitely in development, unfortunately the time table is x, but please be patient with us". With an answer like that we can trust that you are telling us the truth, the time table may not be pleasant but atleast we know that it's coming.

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