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Old 10-23-2003, 05:26 AM   #61 (Print)
PixelFreak
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Hehe, chill.

Directivoetherne:

If we are intelligent beings, and wish to have a discourse regarding your initial complaint, let's keep it civil. Let's also use spellcheck once in a while? Hmm...mmmkay.

Which is it? In your post, you begin with "ad hominim" but end your point with "ad hominem." By the time most people read this, however, you will be quick enough to edit your embarrassment. (For the answer, see ad hominem).

You also refer to both of us as "intelligence people", but alas, you now make me wonder. I believe you meant "intelligent people" but that's for you to decide.

As for making a change, or why I didn't come up with one on my own - it's quite simple, actually. You see, I didn't start this post - I simply read your accusations and responded with a concise breakdown of why you would never get inside the courtroom.

With respect to attacking "Everyone" here, I have attacked nobody here. You may take offense to my thoughts here, or my opinions (which you asked for by creating a newsgroup post), but aren't we "intelligence people" that can simply disagree?

You asked for an opinion regarding your post about barratry, and I gave you a spot-on legal analysis about your wasteful claims. That opinion was given, and you have yet to understand why everyone else in this post disagrees with your reasoning. I am sorry that you feel so alone, but starting fights in newsgroups won't help that - honestly. :S

Don't bring me into any more of this thread - I wash my hands of this.

PixelFreak

PS - Do you honestly think I am only 12 if I can correct your spelling mistakes and faulty logic? Honestly....

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Old 10-23-2003, 05:40 AM   #62 (Print)
blhirsch
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Ok, I am a litigator, and see at least minimal merit to this case (don't get excited OP, there's no way I'm taking this one). So let's not get all wadded up at the OP for having suggested the fact that there could be such a claim. Let me just point out that an arguably similar "false advertising" class action claim against Apple computer is now in the final settlement stage, which means that the plaintiffs were successful in getting themselves certified as a class, and to the court-approved settlement stage. And what was this claim for? People who bought Apple computers and also bought the newest operating system expecting it to have a certain DVD functionality that did not perform quite as advertised. IMLO, this is very similar. The particular DVD functionality was kind of "implied" just like the USB ports were also implied to the average consumer. I mean, it was at least implied enough for scads of uninformed Best Buy employees to equate DirecTV with Tivo with Tivo and talk at length about HMO. Not to mention your average consumer who reasonably went to the Tivo website to learn about what Tivo could add to their DirecTV experience. I know I did.

Putting out pat arguments such as "caveat emptor" and "you could have just returned the unit" doesn't mean that a company can't or shouldn't be liable for the many purchases its advertising induces. Mass torts aren't just for cars that blow up or drugs that harm patients. Companies have to be responsible for the advertising they put out and just because my "harm" is me sitting and pouting that I can't use my USB ports doesn't mean I'm necessarily any less entitled to class action relief.

And I can pout with the best of them.

But this is neither here nor there. I'm not about to file the claim now any more than I was when I bought my Tivo (along with the USB to ethernet and ethernet to wireless bridge I thought I needed), and had to dejectedly return the networking equipment. It stung.

But savvy consumers concluded from the mere fact that "USB" was listed among the "ports" and "features" that these USB ports were functional. And at the time Tivo was advertising the latest and greatest in home networking entertainment using these ports. It was, at a minimum, confusing. At worst, actionable. It's not necessary that evil corporate CEOs are coming up with nefarious ways in secret meetings to mislead consumers to think that USB ports work when they don't. But they can be held responsible for reasonable conclusions that reasonable consumers make. If DirecTV made a profit off of the reasonable but erroneous conclusions of a purchasing public, this is something to which DirecTV might have to answer.

Say what you want about the state of the law in the United States today, but this isn't so cut and dry. And i'm glad that at least one of the detractors got this case mentally to summary judgment. At least the OP survived the imaginary but necessary prior motion to dismiss and the preliminary objection to the class certification.
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Old 10-23-2003, 05:52 AM   #63 (Print)
David Platt
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Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne

Seems like the best you can do is ad hominem attacks ... You’ve never raised an actual intellectual argument which makes me think either 1) you have some financial interest in Directv or an affiliate or 2) you’re 12.
...
That said, I think we can agree on two things 1) intelligence people can disagree and we agree to disagree and 2) your name.


For someone complaining about ad hominem attacks, you sure seem to be making quite a few yourself.

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Old 10-23-2003, 08:45 AM   #64 (Print)
ebonovic
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Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne

To "soap box" re: comparisons to previous versions of consumer electronics that had ports that had no use.

While very funnny, here is where the logic skips a beat. In the cases you were comparing to the USB port issue you had a new types of port or piece of hardware that was promised to fit into it at some future point that was proprietary to that company. They would write a lot of articles/ ads about what it would be used for various whatifs that either materialized or didn't in a few years.

In this case, they are advertising 2 USB ports pure and simple. Hell its on the box. The point being USB ports an industry standard-they eiher work to spec or they do not. Everyone who thinks the USB ports work raise their hand.


Hmm... At least I get create for being funny.

I made the point that this is a normal practice in electronics development. To include the ability to expand in the future, but may never actually use that ability. When I purchase a motherboard back in 1996, it stated that it had the pin set for USB for future expansion. USB was not mainstream then and was not supported by any of the major OSes at the time. Sure two/three years later, USB was fully supported thus I was able to use that future expansion.

What is to say that DirecTv will never use the USB ports? Only time will tell.

Oh and I am also looking at the box for my Cell phone which touts it has an IR port (industry standard), that is disabeled by my carrier.

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Old 10-23-2003, 08:51 AM   #65 (Print)
directivoetherne
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P Freak:

Read the post again. I wasn't making the claim that you were attacking everyone. Just disputing the claim you made that everyone agrees with you and therefore you were right. Heck I even saw a post where you stated that I myself had changed my views. Those points make one wonder if you have a financial interest in directv or an affiliate. I noticed when I asked about a financial interest in a prior post you didn’t deny it. In all seriousness, do you?

As for legal merits blhirsh and others say it well (even tho u state in your email that everyone agrees with you). But what says it best is I got an email from someone else who is already working on it and asked me for copies of some emails I received from directTV CSRs which I provided. I sure don’t have time to work on this, but glad someone else is taking up what I think is a good cause. I hope their motives are to get some positive change as opposed to some large settlement.

Ironically, if you are a DTV affiliate all your posts on this topic probably brought more attention to this idea then it would have otherwise gotten. You have more posts on this topic then anyone or even I do.. If all your posts got people motivated, and mad enough to get dtv to change all I can say is thank you.


Dave-
Agree with your post unfortunately --my post was "Against the man". But I didn't start it, just finished it.
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Old 10-23-2003, 08:56 AM   #66 (Print)
BrettStah
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At my company we bought a A/V encoder with a firewire port. It doesn't do anything though. The manual says it's for "potential future use", which is similar to what the DirecTivo manuals say about the USB ports.

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Old 10-23-2003, 09:03 AM   #67 (Print)
directivoetherne
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mbowles
[B

If I purchase a new computer that is current technology and is advertised to include Microsoft Word I would expect the current version of Word, not Word 95 that cannot print. I would also expect to be able to receive updates in a timely matter.

I think it is the responsibility of Directv to indicate the Tivo software they use is a version they own, support and maintain; not Tivo. I read that nowhere in the information below pasted from the web site.

This is a good point and it strikes me the same way. It says "Direct TV with TIVO" but it really isn't TIVO.

If you bought a computer with Windows, you wouldn't expect 1) to get Windows 95 2) not be able to upgrade and 3) not be supported by Microsoft 3) Have to wait for the computer maker to update you to a current version and 4) if 1-2-3 were true they should have disclosed it before you bought it and they advertised it as DTV with TIVO.
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Old 10-23-2003, 09:10 AM   #68 (Print)
aristoBrat
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Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne
This is a good point and it strikes me the same way. It says "Direct TV with TIVO" but it really isn't TIVO.

It says: 'This incredible technology combines DIRECTV® DVR with Tivo® service with DIRECTV programming to let you easily control and personalize the way you watch TV.'

Don't know what Tivo® service is? Try checking their webpage! http://www.tivo.com/1.2.asp
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Old 10-23-2003, 09:20 AM   #69 (Print)
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USB ports for future use?

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Old 10-23-2003, 09:48 AM   #70 (Print)
BrettStah
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aristoBrat, thanks for the pic! I had forgotten that "future use" was on the box itself, and not just in the manual.

directivoetherne, any slim legitimate legal argument that you think you have is wiped out by that phrase. Time to move on... I hear that the first generation ReplayTV models have firewire ports, but they have yet to be activated. Maybe you should go after them.

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Old 10-23-2003, 10:00 AM   #71 (Print)
directivoetherne
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>>>”It says: 'This incredible technology combines DIRECTV® DVR with Tivo® service with DIRECTV programming to let you easily control and personalize the way you watch TV.'

Don't know what Tivo® service is? Try checking their webpage!

---I have both the SA unit and a DTV unit. The Tivo service “served” with these units is not the same. Different versions entirely. 1000s of posts all over the forum on this complaining how/why they are different. If they were going to publish different versions they should have just disclosed that.

WRT USB ports. To their credit at least they put “2 USB 2.0 ports for future use” on this ad. But even that’s misleading. They don’t have USB ports rev 2.0 because they are deactivated by Directv.

An accurate way to put it would have been “Future upgrade to 2 USB ports 2.0 planned”. The unit itself is really more like a series 1 then a series 2 because its been so hobbled by Directv.
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:19 AM   #72 (Print)
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That wasn't a picture of an ad -- that was a picture of the retail box my 'DirectTV DVR with TiVo Service' came in!

The DirecTiVo has USB 2.0 hardware inside of it. The fact that they're not active doesn't make the hardware 'not there'.

DirecTV said that the DVR comes with TiVo Service. Unless your unit can't do Season Passes, WishLists, Smart Recordings, or Showcases, the DVR does everything it says it would do!
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:21 AM   #73 (Print)
ufo4sale
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I bought one of the first HDVR2 when they came out and I wanted to know what version USB ports I have. Thanks.
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:27 AM   #74 (Print)
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I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. The idea of trying to sue DirecTV because they advertise a *technology* in their units but don't support a specific *feature* available in *one version* of that technology is ridiculous.

Wake up and realize that a product can be labeled as having TiVo and even have certain hardware without supporting a specific feature. Just because TiVo themselves make a similar product with extra features doesn't mean DirecTV is forever linked to do what TiVo does. I'm sorry you feel mislead, but the only person you should have a beef with is yourself. You can't blame DirecTV or anybody else because you made a very incorrect assumption.

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Old 10-23-2003, 10:28 AM   #75 (Print)
directivoetherne
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by aristoBrat
That wasn't a picture of an ad -- [b]that was a picture of the retail box my 'DirectTV DVR with TiVo Service' came in!


Whether it's an ad or on the box-It's still wrong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aristoBrat
The DirecTiVo has USB 2.0 hardware inside of it. The fact that they're not active doesn't make the hardware 'not there'.

Here we just disagree. I think if they say it has rev 2.0 it implies it is functional. What would the average consumer read that as?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aristoBrat
DirecTV said that the DVR comes with TiVo Service.

Right. It doesn't come with Tivo service though. It comes with a piece of code obtained by a license deal with DTV and TIVO which according to Tivo they do not own, upgrade or maintain. Look at the rev # on your DTivo. Tivo itself has never had that rev #!
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:35 AM   #76 (Print)
Thespis
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Quote:
Companies have to be responsible for the advertising they put out and just because my "harm" is me sitting and pouting that I can't use my USB ports doesn't mean I'm necessarily any less entitled to class action relief.

Ok, I'll bite...
What are your damages, and how can the court system make you whole, counselor?
Quote:
Whether it's an ad or on the box-It's still wrong.

What's wrong, the box?
You have no standing; you bought a product that told you clearly on the package it came in what it would and wouldn't do.
Judgment for the defendant!
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:38 AM   #77 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne
Here we just disagree. I think if they say it has rev 2.0 it implies it is functional. What would the average consumer read that as?

If you would take the time, I'd be VERY interested in understanding how the version of something (USB 2.0 in this case), followed by the words "FOR FUTURE USE", implies to you that they're functional.

In consideration for your time, I'm going to go around the office here and ask some 'average consumers' what that phrase means to them. I'll post the results later.

Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne
Right. It doesn't come with Tivo service though. It comes with a piece of code obtained by a license deal with DTV and TIVO which according to Tivo they do not own, upgrade or maintain. Look at the rev # on your DTivo. Tivo itself has never had that rev #!

Who owns the code, the licensing details, and the code version doesn't matter.

The DirecTV (on the box and website) says the DVR comes with TiVo Service, which means the DVR supports Season Passes, WishLists, Smart Recordings, or Showcases.

That's all the say, ... and ... their DVR does that. No misrepresentations there.
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Old 10-23-2003, 10:43 AM   #78 (Print)
directivoetherne
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Quote:
Originally posted by aristoBrat
Who owns the code, the licensing details, and the code version doesn't matter.

The DirecTV (on the box and website) says the DVR comes with TiVo Service, which means the DVR supports Season Passes, WishLists, Smart Recordings, or Showcases.

That's all the say, ... and ... their DVR does that. No misrepresentations there.


Try the MSFT analogy. You buy a dell laptop with MSFT windows. It does everything normal windows does except it doesn't support wireless networking. You got to MSFT and ask for the most recent version they say sorry, its not owned by us. Talk to GM Hughes. GM Hughes says sorry we cant help ya.

Can GM Hughes (owns Directv) sell a product like this? Abosutely. Should they tell you about it before. ABSOLUTELY!!
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:06 AM   #79 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by directivoetherne
Can GM Hughes (owns Directv) sell a product like this? Abosutely. Should they tell you about it before. ABSOLUTELY!!

What more do you want GM Hughes to tell you?

The product is called 'DirecTV DVR with TiVo Service'.

That's GM Hughes telling you that it's a Digitial Video Recorder (that works with DirecTV) that supports TiVo service.

TiVo's website (and the side of the retail box) tells you that TiVo service = Season Passes, WishLists, Smart Recordings, or Showcases.

Period.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:07 AM   #80 (Print)
Rombaldi
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Well I don't have my camera handy, but I dug out my original HDVR2 box and based on the (very dark) picture above, it appears that DirectTV may have realized they have a problem...

On MY box (sitting right by the desk) under 'EQUIPMENT FEATURES' it says...

- USB PORTS

and that's all, no 'future use', no 'not usable', it says USB PORTS

AND down in the wonderful fine print it says...

"The TiVo logo and TiVo are registered trademarks of TiVo, Inc. 'TV Your Way, the Series 2 logo, Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down, Trick Play, Season Pass and Wishlist are trademarks of TiVo, Inc."

magic words... the Series 2 logo

so, what we have here is

a) Tivo Service
b) a Series 2 (no matter how DTV tries to spin it)
c) USB ports (no mentions of them OUTSIDE THE BOX about not being activated)

any reasonable consumer would assume that it has the features of a Series 2 TiVo and the the USB ports would at least be usable for the network connection for making the daily calls...

As people did assume then many have said they picked up their HDVR2 and wireless networking or USB/Ethernet adapters.

THAT no matter how you slice it is DECEPTIVE ADVERTISING bordering on fraud.

DTV should at minimum be REQUIRED to enable the USB ports for the TIVO functionality (ie, the daily call). Requiring the phone line FOR DIRECT TV usage (PPV and Sports Verification) is a WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER and I have NO PROBLEM with that reqirement, but for the TIVO call (the one that causes the nag screens and the software updates [as proven by the last one that it's NOT coming from the bird] I do have the problem with. As many people have reported in other places.. if you don't order PPV with the remote and don't have the NFL or other packages, the receiver dosen't really care about the phone line.. but TiVo does.

Q.E.D. - DTV is at fault and should be compelled to rectify the problem post haste.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:18 AM   #81 (Print)
brianj16426
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Question

I have sympathies for both sides here.

On the DT* is an evil entity bent on world domination (paraphrased from previous posts) side:

It would have been EXTREMELY easy for them to name their ports something different (DTUSB) to indicate that they do not work with standard USB devices, or to actually change the configuration of the connectors to further distinguish their ports from standard/functional USB ports. This type of behavior is common with video game systems that routinely include serial ports in varied configurations so that the manufacturers peripherals will work but no one else's will.

On the RTFM (or in this case RTFP - Package) side:

If I sell you a computer that is "Equipped with 6 USB 2.0 ports, and is pre-loaded with Windows NT 4.0!". IT IS NOT my responsibility to tell you that Windows NT 4.0 does not support USB.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:20 AM   #82 (Print)
aristoBrat
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rombaldi
"The TiVo logo and TiVo are registered trademarks of TiVo, Inc. 'TV Your Way, the Series 2 logo, Thumbs Up, Thumbs Down, Trick Play, Season Pass and Wishlist are trademarks of TiVo, Inc."

Just to play the devils advocate, ...

On the outside of your retail box, does it state anywhere that you're buying a DVR that is Series 2?

'The Series 2 logo' is a trademark of TiVo, Inc. If the manual included using 'Star Trek' as an example of how to setup a Season Pass, and listed that trademark, that doesn't mean that we should have a communicator in box.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:27 AM   #83 (Print)
Rombaldi
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Quote:
Originally posted by aristoBrat
Just to play the devils advocate, ...

On the outside of your retail box, does it state anywhere that you're buying a DVR that is Series 2?


And to bedevil you right back...

It has a TiVo Logo on the box
the print says the TIVO SERIES 2 LOGO is a tradmark
the box says it has USB ports (and by omission implies that they are usable)

therefore, sitting right next to another (non-DirectTV) TiVo with USB ports (which is how they are stacked up in BB, CC, et.al.) the implication is that it's a Series 2 with the functionality of a Series 2 TiVo with the addition of having a dual tuner DirecTV tuner.

or to put it another, no where on this box does it say it ISN'T a Series 2 and the the USB ports are non-funtional.

Now, go right ahead and tell me HOW this information would give rise to a reasonable consumer thinking anything otherwise...
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:33 AM   #84 (Print)
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Saying "Foo is a trademark of somebody" doesn't suddenly make Foo in the product. It's a standard disclaimer.

There is no Series2 logo on the DTVDVR. There ARE USB ports. They do exist. The software doesn't support them. Build a bridge and get over it. There's surely no false advertising going on.

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Old 10-23-2003, 11:38 AM   #85 (Print)
Rombaldi
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Originally posted by gleffler
Build a bridge and get over it.


That depends, will you go back under it
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:39 AM   #86 (Print)
ufo4sale
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Can someone please tell me what version of USB do I have? It doesn't say anywhere on the box.
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Old 10-23-2003, 11:41 AM   #87 (Print)
directivoetherne
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by gleffler
[B]Saying "Foo is a trademark of somebody" doesn't suddenly make Foo in the product. It's a standard disclaimer.

No, that is not what a standard disclaimer is; I think you are thinking of a different word.

A disclaimer would be something like for a hair enhancement drug saying "your results may vary". And you're right if they had a standard disclaimer on there like "This is DTV's version of TIVO and features and functions may vary" that would have done the trick.

The whole reason there is trademark law and the reason its so guarded by companies is it represents the the product and the brand equity being sold. And, correspondingly, that's why a reasonable consumer assumes those features ARE in the product.

That's why it is false advertising, fraud, and needs to be fixed immediately.

Last edited by directivoetherne : 10-23-2003 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 10-23-2003, 12:01 PM   #88 (Print)
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Very interesting. Good luck with it.

Yawn....



My .02.

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Old 10-23-2003, 12:04 PM   #89 (Print)
Fish Man
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Quote:
Originally posted by brianj16426

If I sell you a computer that is "Equipped with 6 USB 2.0 ports, and is pre-loaded with Windows NT 4.0!". IT IS NOT my responsibility to tell you that Windows NT 4.0 does not support USB.


The new guy, with one post nails the issue perfectly!

Ports, connectors, hardware, and even firmware that is reserved for "future use" is incorporated into products every day!

Sitting on my desk right now is a product my company makes that has a "daughter card connector" on it. Guess what, we don't make or sell any daughter cards that plug into it and may NEVER do so! We think we probably will, but business plans could change.

The daughter card connector is electrically functional, and theoretically could permit a broad range of features to be added to the product via (yet to be designed) hardware accessories.

However, we don't offer any "daughter cards" for that product at present. I shudder to think that any of our customers might be petty enough to sue us because we can't sell them something to plug into that connector right now!!! TODAY!!

Get it straight: DirecTV has no legal obligation to make those USB ports do ANYTHING, EVER!

What a novel concept you litigation crazed people are proposing:

Let's buy a product that doesn't have quite the feature set we want, but we believe the hardware would support certain features we want, if the manufacturer made some software changes, and then SUE the manufacturer to add the features we desire. When no-one ever promised those features were forthcoming.

"Future use" is completely open ended. They didn't commit to make those USB ports do something next month or next year. 100 years from now would still be in the "future".

You purchased a product that had a particular feature set when you bought it. No one is obliged to equip it with any features beyond what it had when you bought it!

Another poster used the example that if they used the phrase "Star Trek" in the manual in an example of how to set up a wish list, they might put a footnote in the manual to the effect, "'Star Trek' is a registered trademark of Paramount Pictures." To suggest that the mention of the "Series II" trademark implies anything about future function you are entitled to is like saying such a mention of the "Star Trek" trademark entitles you to the DVD collection of Star Trek movies!

Oh, and BTW: "Series II", with respect to the TiVo, refers to a re-design of the TiVo hardware (changing from PowerPC processor to MIPS processor, and several other design changes). The "Series II" DirecTiVos incorporate these hardware changes. "Series II" does not imply any particular software features. The "Series II" stand alone boxes were "Series II" boxes before TiVo offered HMO function on them!

This lawsuit is ludicrous. Its a non-starter.

But you go ahead, buying various products and then suing their manufacturers to add features that you wish they had...

You're free to do so in this country, after all...


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Fish Man is offline Report Bad Post Report Post
Old 10-23-2003, 12:12 PM   #90 (Print)
directivoetherne
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 34
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fish Man Originally posted by brianj16426

If I sell you a computer that is "Equipped with 6 USB 2.0 ports, and is pre-loaded with Windows NT 4.0!". IT IS NOT my responsibility to tell you that Windows NT 4.0 does not support USB.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right Fishman but you DO have to disclose its Windows NT 4.0 you are selling and not XP.

Last edited by directivoetherne : 10-23-2003 at 12:19 PM.
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