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Old 09-07-2004, 05:42 AM   #61 (Print)
topcats69
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Quote:
Originally posted by raianoat
I don't think they will be horrible quality however; I'm sure they won't be as good as a DVD. In any case, the fact that you can d-load them and watch them at your leisure is good enough for me.


My main issue is NO DD 5.1 would suck..
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Old 09-07-2004, 06:42 AM   #62 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by m_jonis
Well, having 2 Series 2 units, and NetFlix, I initially thought this would be cool.

However, potential killers:

a) CNET has reported (a few months ago) that TW Cable-Road Runner, and other broadband ISP's have an "unwritten" download limit. (some actually do tell you what the quota is). In RR case, if you download some arbitrary amount of stuff, they will deactivate your account because you're a hog. (seriously I'm NOT making this up).


Now, IF Tivo is going to come out with some sort of newer model that has Optical or Toslink audio out and 480i/p component video THEN we're talking. Otherwise, even on a "regular" TV, a DVD player is going to far outshine anything the Tivo can output.
--Kevin



I have Road Runner and was very active on napster in its final free form days. I am sure I passed 20 Gig in a month. Have used bittorrent some as well, also do VPN work from home items. Never have hit any unwritten download limit. I think if I made one call, explained the usage and informed them I would switch to sattelite and DSL if they did not like my bonfide use of my service would quiet them down.


The TiVo units with DVD player or DVD recorder have what you want as Bedelman pointed out above. One of the reasons I got a second TiVo was to have component out and digital audio for when I upgrade my TV. For now I watch my netflix DVDs on the SD H400 along with recorded shows. And be realistic - a lot of movies do not need or make good use of 5.1 sound.

What I hope is that Netflix lets us have a joint account where we can have 1 DVD and some number of downloads out at a time. That would be the sweet spot
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Old 09-07-2004, 07:44 AM   #63 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by robm15
But one thing a TIVO simply can not do that a DVD player can is 5.1 dolby digital or DTS surround sound.


Bzzt. Not so.

As mentioned above, many models of tivo can do DD via an optical out. Additionally, the HDTivo can do DD5.1 and High Definition movies, which (unless you count the HD-WMV players) NO DVD player can do yet. Directv HD movies saved on your tivo = Hi-Def, 5.1 movie nirvana.

While it may be possible to use netflix/tivo with current hardware, obviously you'll be limited by your hardware. Neither company is stupid. They KNOW the people buying this first are techies and will WANT the quality of sound offered by DVD.

I would imagine the DD soundtrack will be available for those with optical connections on their tivo. Those without may find incentive to upgrade.

Also - Anyone know if USB2 is fast enough to have a USB2-->SPDIF adapter? This would solve the 5.1 issue for many series 2 users...

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Old 09-07-2004, 08:02 AM   #64 (Print)
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Well, it must be true if Newsweek says so and now MSNBC is running the same article, though it has an extra paragraph or two I think.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5915470/site/newsweek/
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Old 09-07-2004, 08:22 AM   #65 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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All I have to say now is this line from the article

"Subscribers who belong to both services will be able to download their Netflix DVDs over the Internet directly into the TiVo boxes in their homes, instead of receiving them in the mail. "

and my signature on this board sure do look nice together
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:07 AM   #66 (Print)
Ned Dorsey
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I did some calculating to see the approximate file-size of a 90 minute movie/show series at various quality levels...

Basic Quality - 1.3 GB
Medium Quality - 2.2 GB
High Quality - 2.9 GB
Best Quality - 4.8 GB

It will be interesting to see if we will be able to select quality levels/file size of the downloads as we can select the quality of recorded shows now.

These calculations were figured using the estimated total recording times of different quality levels listed in the menu of an 80GB Series 2.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:00 AM   #67 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ned Dorsey
I did some calculating to see the approximate file-size of a 90 minute movie/show series at various quality levels...

Basic Quality - 1.3 GB
Medium Quality - 2.2 GB
High Quality - 2.9 GB
Best Quality - 4.8 GB

It will be interesting to see if we will be able to select quality levels/file size of the downloads as we can select the quality of recorded shows now.

These calculations were figured using the estimated total recording times of different quality levels listed in the menu of an 80GB Series 2.


Your calculations don't really apply here. Whatever is ultimately sent down the pipe will surely be compressed by high quality commercial equipment using VBR in multiple passes. The encoding will be much more efficient than the cheap encoder inside the Tivo.

I've seen pretty good looking Directv PPV movies with files sizes of 1.8 GB - 2.5 GB.

They could always use MPEG-1 and make the files sizes much smaller.

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Old 09-07-2004, 10:12 AM   #68 (Print)
Ned Dorsey
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^ That would be good news if they compress it more. I hadn't thought about the encoding happening at Netflix, not inside the TiVo (it's still early ) That's good that we won't be sacrificing much HDD space for the download service.

I wouldn't mind the same very good quality as my home movies that I make on SVCD which are about 40 minutes per 650MB disk - or about 1.46GB for 90 minutes worth of video.

Last edited by Ned Dorsey : 09-07-2004 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:35 AM   #69 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeG
Also - Anyone know if USB2 is fast enough to have a USB2-->SPDIF adapter? This would solve the 5.1 issue for many series 2 users...


USB 1.1 is fast enough to do this. The audio data rate for DD compressed audio maxes out at 448Kbps, and while other formats (PCM/DTS) can be higher, they still peak at somewhere around 6.5Mbps for PCM, and practically are much lower because that wouldn't leave many bits for video.

USB 1.1 is theoretically fast enough to pipe all of the data coming off of a DVD in real time, but in practice you'd never get the sustained data rate you need. USB 2.0 is more than fast enough -- you could build an outboard 2.0 "dongle" with component or DVI output and digital audio out if you really wanted to.

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Old 09-07-2004, 11:29 AM   #70 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by capran
So it makes me wonder how a movie is going to look. I have 8mbit DSL, so bandwidth isn't an issue for me, (unless this thing is going to do what TiVo does to TV input, watch it all the time...), but I figure they're going to need to compress the stream, maybe using an advanced mpeg4 codec (how about that new H.264 that Apple and DVD Forum is touting?


Unfortunately the TiVo hardware is not capable of playing MPEG4 (H.264 is a variant of MPEG4) so MPEG2 is their only option. However if they downsample the resolution to 520x480 they should be able to get near DVD quality at a bitrate of 3-4Mbps, which will produce files that are about 1.5GB per hour. If they're not worried about bandwidth they could simply rip the movie directly from the DVD and you would see no difference from the original.

Quote:
Originally posted by capran
Mainly I've noticed the quality problems since I "inherited" the Wega from my Dad. Before I was using an older TV, so maybe its just that the Wega is so much crisper anyway that it brings out the flaws in the TiVo video codec?

Is there anything that can be done about that? Would a new TiVo box (either DirecTivo or DVD-R) have better quality? Do the newer boxes have better codecs?


The better the TV the better it is at showing the flaws. The best way to alleviate this problem is to purchase a calibration DVD such as Avia or Video Essentials and use it to calibrate your set. A properly calibrated set will reduce the visibility of these flaws.

As for newer TiVos.... All standalone TiVos use MPEG2, so there would be no improvement in quality by moving to a Series 2. In fact the Pioneer DVD-R unit has a flaw that makes the picture quality worse then normal Series 2 units. A DirecTiVo on the other hand would make a big difference. Those record the digital stream directly from the dish, so there is no difference between the live signal and the recorded signal. The only problem is that they are controlled by DirecTV, and thus far DirecTV has not allowed them to have any of the networking features such as HMO. Which means it's unlikely they will allow this Netflix service either.

Dan

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Old 09-07-2004, 11:45 AM   #71 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
The only problem is that they are controlled by DirecTV, and thus far DirecTV has not allowed them to have any of the networking features such as HMO. Which means it's unlikely they will allow this Netflix service either.
This would seem perfect for DBS companies looking for a way to counter VOD. The Starz SVOD stuff is (to my knowledge) only on D* Tivos. There's the MovieBeam / D* rumors. Tivo / Netflix would look very similar ...
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:18 PM   #72 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by LeeG
Also - Anyone know if USB2 is fast enough to have a USB2-->SPDIF adapter? This would solve the 5.1 issue for many series 2 users...

Lee


One of these (coax, not optical) already exists for computers:
M-Audio Sonica Theater. TiVo could write drivers for this and make us all happy.
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:21 PM   #73 (Print)
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DTiVo

Seems to me, D* could easly comeup with a compeating business model - via a PPV / NetFlix model.... ie..

using their website for members to select the PPV movies - they want to watch 'queue' and set a flat rate PPV for the number of movies per month.

The bandwidth issue would be over SAT , the only difference would be a random order of movies delivered. What I mean by that is what ever movies you select they would be recorded to your TiVo when they are shown. So your choice of when you would see a particular movie would be at 'their' discression, kinda. You could still watch it when you wanted cuz it would be recorded. But you would not have too much control on when it was downloaded.

I'm not sure They could provide much of a library, but compeating on the 'just released' movies might allow a profitable model.

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:22 PM   #74 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by aindik
One of these (coax, not optical) already exists for computers:
M-Audio Sonica Theater. TiVo could write drivers for this and make us all happy.


Here's one for 1/3 the price...

http://www.cablestogo.com/product.a...=1501&sku=22327

Dan

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:33 PM   #75 (Print)
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TiVo/Netflix deal close?


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Old 09-07-2004, 12:34 PM   #76 (Print)
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Because you don't visit the coffeehouse: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=193480
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:34 PM   #77 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dt_dc
This would seem perfect for DBS companies looking for a way to counter VOD. The Starz SVOD stuff is (to my knowledge) only on D* Tivos. There's the MovieBeam / D* rumors. Tivo / Netflix would look very similar ...


and a pretty solid rumor on Disney(Moviebeam)/DirectTV at that

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ighlight=disney
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Old 09-07-2004, 12:36 PM   #78 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dslunceford
Because you don't visit the coffeehouse: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=193480


Heck no! Everything fun happens here. That's why I rely on crossposting!

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:37 PM   #79 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dslunceford
Because you don't visit the coffeehouse: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=193480


touche.

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:46 PM   #80 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by aindik
One of these (coax, not optical) already exists for computers:
M-Audio Sonica Theater. TiVo could write drivers for this and make us all happy.


Should be EASY for tivo to implement support for a device like this, an then allow anyone who wants DD to get it - another source of income too if they rebrand one as a "tivo" manufactured accessory.

Lee

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Old 09-07-2004, 12:49 PM   #81 (Print)
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Having just recently turned "Starz on Demand" on, just to see how it looked, I must say that having new complete movies just show up in my "Now Playing" list is, simultaneously, both pleasant and odd.

It's pleasant to just have a new movie there that I could watch, and it's odd because they don't bubble to the top or anything, but you have to scroll through the Suggestions to find them. This did make finding out when they came down fairly simple though, by looking at suggestions in between the various "Starz on Demand" showings.

I would imagine a similar scheme would be true for the Strangeberry delivery, the movie would simply be in "Now Playing" when it's finished and you'd be unaware of it's partial delivery until that time.
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Old 09-07-2004, 01:50 PM   #82 (Print)
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My guess is that there will be a special NetFlix folder at the bottom of Now Playing where your movies would be stored. As they're being downloaded the movies would probably just show up as a recording in both Now Playing and the To Do List just like when you're transferring a show via HMO.

One thing I'm wondering is how space management is going to be handled with this service? The only way to ensure the current NetFlix model is to set all NetFlix "recordings" to SUID by default. That's the only way the system could know for sure that you explicitly deleted the recording, and it didn't just get pushed off your now playing list. The problem with that is this service is going to require a large chunk of dedicated space. I mean if they downloaded the full ISO image of the DVD disks, then a 3 movie package could require as much as 25.5GB of storage. That's over half the space of the entire drive in a 40 hour unit. Even if they sent just the movie and downsampled it to 3-4Mbps it would still require about 9GB of storage for 3 two hour movies, cutting the space on a 40 hour unit by 1/4.

Dan

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Old 09-07-2004, 01:56 PM   #83 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tonyquan

BTW, the TiVo beta questionnaire has been updated with a question that asks "where do you rent movies from", and one of the options is "by mail". guess you know how you want to answer that one if you want to test this feature when it comes out...


Ouch- I guess I thought that, given the press release, that beta was already behind us and that this feature would be available soon. Are you saying that this isn't even in Beta yet?

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Old 09-07-2004, 02:12 PM   #84 (Print)
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This is a partnership agreement, not a feature announcement. TiVo may have done some of the coding before the deal was finalized, but there is no way they could have done in the field Beta testing before the partnership was finalized. I wouldn't expect to see this feature hit the market until at least 6 months from now, maybe longer.

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Old 09-07-2004, 02:31 PM   #85 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
This is a partnership agreement, not a feature announcement. TiVo may have done some of the coding before the deal was finalized, but there is no way they could have done in the field Beta testing before the partnership was finalized. I wouldn't expect to see this feature hit the market until at least 6 months from now, maybe longer.

Dan


remember that when TiVo did the press release on HMO being free and then started adding in other anouncements to counteract DirectTV leaving TiVo frenzy - TiVo officially said they expected internet download feature to be available in early 2005 at that time.


PS the articles linked in this thread are NOT an official press release from either company. Indeed the companies are quoted as saying they will not comment on the "rumurs" the article discusses. Of course we all know TiVo and Netflix have been working toward this feature so I am not discounting the reporting - just pointing out that TiVo will not confirm it is a duck waddling toward water
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:32 PM   #86 (Print)
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This idea sounds cool initially. But, one of the things I like about rented/purchased DVDs is the Dolby Digital/DTS sound presentation. With just RCA analog left and right audio outputs on the TiVo, the sound won't be so great.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:37 PM   #87 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
My guess is that there will be a special NetFlix folder at the bottom of Now Playing where your movies would be stored. As they're being downloaded the movies would probably just show up as a recording in both Now Playing and the To Do List just like when you're transferring a show via HMO.


That's probably true for the standalones. We don't have Folders on the DTivo units and the "Starz on Demand" movies simply show up in Now Playing mixed in with everything else, though they do have an interesting new icon (where the Tivo in a circle is for Suggestions, they have a circle cut into 4 quadrants with a different color in each quadrant, almost Windows-like, but more pastel). Surprisingly, they don't show the channel logo on the right, even though all the other channels do.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:40 PM   #88 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
just pointing out that TiVo will not confirm it is a duck waddling toward water


Ugh - I always liked chicken better. Although I may have to develop a taste for duck now!

On Topic - wow, this 'rumor' is great news ... can't wait for details, and desperately hoping to be on the beta program (if its still underway!)!

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Old 09-07-2004, 02:45 PM   #89 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DougF
This idea sounds cool initially. But, one of the things I like about rented/purchased DVDs is the Dolby Digital/DTS sound presentation. With just RCA analog left and right audio outputs on the TiVo, the sound won't be so great.
My TiVo has optical out, but I doubt DirecTV would ever allow this on their boxes. They're going to want to sell me a PPV movie instead.

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Old 09-07-2004, 02:52 PM   #90 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DougF
This idea sounds cool initially. But, one of the things I like about rented/purchased DVDs is the Dolby Digital/DTS sound presentation. With just RCA analog left and right audio outputs on the TiVo, the sound won't be so great.


There is discussion in the coffeehouse thread that a) the TiVos with DVD players or burners built in have not only digitial audio out but progressive component video out, and b) that USB devices exist that can deliver 5.1 (or even 7.1) sound.
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