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Old 10-03-2004, 01:06 PM   #61 (Print)
Krosis
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Quote:
Originally posted by mmascari
While you don't have to be concerned with the quality level, you also can't control the quality level of what you record since it's set by DirectTv when then send it. This can still produce different types of results based on what you are recording.
.


DTV varying the encoding quality isn't as big a variable as many people claim. Not nearly as much as on a SA with user selected quality levels. Show type seems to have a bigger influence, lots of motion, B&W, animation etc.. DTivos always record in some near approximation to "High or Best Quality" on SAs, and do it taking a lot less space. DTVs mpeg encoders are much better than anything included in a SA Tivo.

To put some numbers to this:

1/2 hour shows
---------------------
I love Lucy -- 362meg
King of The Hill -- 404meg
Dilbert -- 457meg
Hogan's Heros -- 489meg
Home Improvement -- 472meg
Home Improvement -- 399meg
Megascience -- 476meg

With animation it seems to be affected by the type of animation. Modern computer generated animations seem to do better than older celluloid animation.
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Old 10-03-2004, 01:27 PM   #62 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mmascari
While you don't have to be concerned with the quality level, you also can't control the quality level of what you record since it's set by DirectTv when then send it. This can still produce different types of results based on what you are recording.


In my personal experience, DTV content, even at the highest levels of compression with varied types of recordings, still looks better than a SA TiVo set at "Best."

(I have a feeling the MPEG encoder they're using is of slightly better quality than the one that's inside the current TiVo product.)

Last edited by Fofer : 10-03-2004 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 10-03-2004, 04:51 PM   #63 (Print)
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I am not really sure why people think that figuring how much room is left on the drive is difficult. I have done some programming and database development. It seems fairly obvious to me that the TiVo stores the quality and length of a given recording in a database or flat file. The programmers at TiVo know that the recording rate for each quality is. Take the length x the recording rate get the space used. Add em all up subtract that from the total volume of the partition set aside for storing shows. Do this all in reverse to tell me how much I can record at each quality. It all seems like simple programming to me.
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Old 10-03-2004, 06:52 PM   #64 (Print)
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Maybe Tivo stores it's info in a very complex format and to interpret it would be too hard.


Jason
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:36 PM   #65 (Print)
ufo4sale
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonD
Maybe Tivo stores it's info in a very complex format and to interpret it would be too hard.


Jason


That's a scary thought. They created something that no one can understand or interpret. I'm afraid the end of the world is near.
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:23 PM   #66 (Print)
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So...help a newbie out!

Hmmmm....much debate on the subject. What does a poor bloke do when he wants to "buy and record" a PPV movie and Tivo tells him there is not enough space on the disc ? There is about 10 hours recorded on the disk with no HD, no 5.1, and no other special things.
Note: If I just "buy" the movie...then record it.....works perfectly...and I still get other things recorded from the "Season Manager".
TIA
Ryde
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Old 10-05-2004, 04:46 AM   #67 (Print)
tim99
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One of the new Sage Tv interfaces has a disk space indicator. The way it works is that it looks ahead X number of hours (user definable) and compares the amount of disk space you have with what the ToDo list indicates you're going to need. In addition to showing the amount of space left the guage changes color (green/orange/red) to let you know if you have enough space for it to record everything it's supposed to in the next say 48 hours or that you're are in danger of having stuff deleted.

At a literal glance you can tell whether you need to watch/extract/delete stuff or risk losing it.

Even if someone doesn't use their PVR in this way, its hard to imagine how they can't see how useful it would be for others.

peace . . .

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Old 10-11-2004, 12:01 PM   #68 (Print)
mrjam2jab
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If it is so debateable on whether it is or isnt complicated to tell how much space is available for recording....

Why cant it just tell you how much space is used.....

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Old 10-11-2004, 12:34 PM   #69 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrjam2jab
Why cant it just tell you how much space is used.....


Good question.

Maybe because TiVo is hiding recordings ::cough:: ads ::cough:: and they don't want to confuse us?

Still, those shouldn't take precedence over user recordings. I'd love a meter that added up the amount of hours of recorded shows I have. Doing it manually is painful. This *is* a computer, right?
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Old 10-11-2004, 12:48 PM   #70 (Print)
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Fofer, you've been around here long enough to know that TiVo's "ads" do not take away any space on your hard drive for recoding shows. The ads are on another partition.
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Old 10-11-2004, 01:09 PM   #71 (Print)
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What people really want to know is how much more they can record without something they already have recorded being deleted. TiVo should provide an "hours free" indicator along with a list of programs and when they will be deleted under the current recording schedule. Put enough disclaimers on it to make it clear that it's all just a "best estimate" and that everything will change if there are any changes to the recording schedule.

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Old 10-11-2004, 02:01 PM   #72 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by nrc
What people really want to know is how much more they can record without something they already have recorded being deleted.

I suspect that the typical case is that there is zero space available to record without deleting something. With more than a full day of video available, I don't see any benefit in micromanaging the free space. My TiVo does an admirable job of making shows expire and vanish without my interference. The only time we had trouble is when we went on vacation for a week and my wife had two hours per day of "keep until I delete" season passes, which bumped another show she really wanted to watch.
Quote:
TiVo should provide an "hours free" indicator along with a list of programs and when they will be deleted under the current recording schedule. Put enough disclaimers on it to make it clear that it's all just a "best estimate" and that everything will change if there are any changes to the recording schedule.

Things will also change if there are any deletions, or if any shows are transferred from another TiVo, or if any of the expiration dates are changed.

I think a reasonable solution for the people who demand a free space indicator would be to provide a bar graph showing how much relative space is currently occupied by
  • recordings or transfers in progress (red)
  • "Keep until I delete" shows (green)
  • unexpired shows (gray?)
  • expired shows (yellow)
  • shows that are about to be deleted (orange?)
  • suggestions (blue?)
  • free space (black)
This wouldn't be hard to implement, and it wouldn't be hard to interpret. Am I missing anything?
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Old 10-11-2004, 02:27 PM   #73 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ufo4sale
Fofer, you've been around here long enough to know that TiVo's "ads" do not take away any space on your hard drive for recoding shows. The ads are on another partition.


Yeah, I know. Just stirrin' up trouble, is all...
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:25 PM   #74 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qunchuy
Things will also change if there are any deletions, or if any shows are transferred from another TiVo, or if any of the expiration dates are changed.
So things will change. So what? After I drive to work, my car's gas gauge changes. After I record something to VHS, the FSI on my VCR changes. So? That doesn't mean it wasn't useful at the time.
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Old 10-11-2004, 03:34 PM   #75 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
So things will change. So what? After I drive to work, my car's gas gauge changes. After I record something to VHS, the FSI on my VCR changes. So? That doesn't mean it wasn't useful at the time.


Well I guess folks would start complaining that their shows got deleted on Wednesday when on Monday it said the coast was clear. Apparently TiVo isn't as much about how much space you have "Right Now" as much as it is how much you have in order to accommodate recordings for the upcoming week.

By marking everything as "expired" within 2 days of it's recording, TiVo is basically saying that all bets are off.

I suspect folks would like to see a way to change the default so that EVERYTHING is "Save Until I Delete" - with a mechanism to calculate how many hours are recorded this way.

(Hard drive manufacturers would like that too.)
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:34 PM   #76 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fofer
Well I guess folks would start complaining that their shows got deleted on Wednesday when on Monday it said the coast was clear.
This is the "TiVo users have never used a VCR, don't have the skills to survive in the real world, and have no sense of their own actions" argument. Does anyone look at a full gas gauge, drive all around, and then when they run out of gas say, "but it said it was just full a few days ago!"

Does anyone take an empty VHS tape, record 6 hours, fail to record a 7th hour, and then say, "but it was empty just a few hours ago!"

Your scenario suggests people can't grasp the concept that new recordings use up space. Someone who's even bothering to look at the FSI to determine they have 5 hours of space free on Monday is doing so because they're aware that they need room for new recordings on Tuesday. So on Wednesday, knowing they had 7 hours of new recordings, they're not going to say, "But just two days ago I had 5 hours free!"
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:25 PM   #77 (Print)
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Here...



Now Write the code!

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Old 10-11-2004, 07:33 PM   #78 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by chronatog7
Here...



Now Write the code!



chronatog7, I think I just climaxed.



Thank you.


(Was it as good for you as it was for me?)
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Old 10-11-2004, 07:35 PM   #79 (Print)
chronatog7
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lol, I'm smoking a cigarette after all the hard work.

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Old 10-11-2004, 07:48 PM   #80 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
Your scenario suggests people can't grasp the concept that new recordings use up space. Someone who's even bothering to look at the FSI to determine they have 5 hours of space free on Monday is doing so because they're aware that they need room for new recordings on Tuesday. So on Wednesday, knowing they had 7 hours of new recordings, they're not going to say, "But just two days ago I had 5 hours free!"
And how about those poor ignorant users who see they have 4 hours left, watch 10 minutes of a show, and then discover that the TiVo has deleted their long-saved episode? It's obviously their fault that they didn't understand all the intricacies of TiVo's deletion algorithms, and they won't be upset at TiVo at all. Right .

I can think of at least 3 scenarios where the above can happen, all without the user explictly recording a show or altering any recording options during that 10 minutes.

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Old 10-11-2004, 08:05 PM   #81 (Print)
DocNo
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by ErictheHank
That is my #1 most desired feature. I would love it if you could configure your TiVos as a collective recording pool.


tivoweb plus has it now. My new 5400 isn't currently hackable
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Old 10-11-2004, 08:08 PM   #82 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
This whole "future prediction" thing is a red herring. Most people don't give a rat's ass about future predictions. All we want is a gauge that shows the state of things right now. If someone doesn't see how that's useful to them, then they can feel free to ignore it. But most people see value in knowing that information.


thank you....
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:03 PM   #83 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrispyCritter
And how about those poor ignorant users who see they have 4 hours left, watch 10 minutes of a show, and then discover that the TiVo has deleted their long-saved episode? It's obviously their fault that they didn't understand all the intricacies of TiVo's deletion algorithms, and they won't be upset at TiVo at all.
You're confusing totally different things. This is not an issue about understanding TiVo's deletion algorithms and how it chooses what to delete next. This is about identifying whether anything has to be deleted at all! If you have 4 hours free, and you know that you're recording 5 hours tonight, then you automatically know that something will be deleted. This gives you the opportunity to free up some more space by manually deleting things you are willing to delete, not relying on TiVo's algorithm. But you get this opportunity only if you know that your free space is 4 hours.

Quote:
I can think of at least 3 scenarios where the above can happen, all without the user explictly recording a show
It's late now and my brain may not be at peak efficiency, but I can think of no circumstance whatsoever where TiVo would record a non-suggestion show without explicit instructions from the user. Those instructions may have been issued two months ago, but they still came from you. So if it's Thursday and you have 1 hour free, then it is incumbent upon you to know that Survivor, Apprentice, and ER are all on tonight, and you either must free up space yourself or let TiVo do it with its mystical algorithm. This is no different than if you have a tape in the VCR with 1 hour free. You still must be aware of your recording needs. The difference is that a tape tells you how much free space you have, and TiVo does not.

(And we should be considering only common cases here, not infrequent events like a show being moved in the schedule. Schedule changes screw lots of things up no matter what technology you're using, so they're a wash. Although TiVo's ToDo list does give you a fair shot at noticing them.)
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:10 PM   #84 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DocNo
tivoweb plus has it now. My new 5400 isn't currently hackable


How, where? TELL ME MAN!!!!
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:14 PM   #85 (Print)
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I work on steel detailing software but I still balk at spelling "gauge" as "gage".

I can fit more than 5 hours in 4 hours of space. Best Quality too. I just have to turn off the cable box to do it. VBR encoding is indeed active in Series2 TiVos.

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Old 10-11-2004, 10:22 PM   #86 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HTH
I work on steel detailing software but I still balk at spelling "gauge" as "gage".


I cringed too, but according to dictionary.com apparently the two spellings are interchangeable.
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Old 10-11-2004, 10:47 PM   #87 (Print)
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This is one reason I have Suggestions turned on. The more recordings I have, the few suggestions I have. Simple really.
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Old 10-11-2004, 11:06 PM   #88 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
You're confusing totally different things. This is not an issue about understanding TiVo's deletion algorithms and how it chooses what to delete next. This is about identifying whether anything has to be deleted at all! If you have 4 hours free, and you know that you're recording 5 hours tonight, then you automatically know that something will be deleted. This gives you the opportunity to free up some more space by manually deleting things you are willing to delete, not relying on TiVo's algorithm. But you get this opportunity only if you know that your free space is 4 hours.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I agree that you get more opportunities if you know more. Actually, I'm in favor of having a GBytes used FSI. But to report number of hours left, or expected deletion time of shows is just setting TiVo up for angry customers. Users want to trust TiVo, and when their TiVo says there are 4 hours left and 10 minutes later it deletes a show, they are going to be upset. No company wants to deliberately set up situations where they will lose their customers trust.

The fact that you can't come up with 3 scenarios where this will happen shows that you don't have TiVo's scheduling algorithms firmly in mind. If you can't do it, then an average TiVo user has no hope. Your posts show you are much more technology and TiVo knowledgable than most users. (By the way, none of my three scenarios involve last-minute schedule changes.)

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Old 10-11-2004, 11:10 PM   #89 (Print)
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Lay 'em on us, CrispyCritter! What are the three scenarios?
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Old 10-12-2004, 12:15 AM   #90 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrispyCritter
Users want to trust TiVo, and when their TiVo says there are 4 hours left and 10 minutes later it deletes a show, they are going to be upset.
I say that they'll be no more upset than if they see they have 1 hour free on a tape, set the VCR to record 2 hours, and then later discover that the second show didn't record.

Do people do that with tapes? I'm sure it's happened. But that's not the case that you design a product around. In other words, yes, there are situations where users will be stupid and feel screwed, but there's no avoiding that.

Quote:
The fact that you can't come up with 3 scenarios where this will happen shows that you don't have TiVo's scheduling algorithms firmly in mind.
To restate what I said before, I know of no situations in which TiVo will record something not explicitly requested. I'm sure your scenarios, no matter what they are, involve explicit scheduling, because without an explicit request to record a show, TiVo is a doorstop. But I'm curious to hear your scenarios.
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