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Old 10-24-2004, 11:08 PM   #1 (Print)
Qrashman
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Humax unit can't record NFL onto DVD (ugh)

I bought the new Humax DVD Recorder, almost solely to have an archive of New York Jets games for my collection. However, I just found out that the recorder doesn't even let you put NFL games on DVD.

Every tivo program is available to be put on DVD except for the Jets and Giants games that I recorded today. Even the World Series, which I expected would have the same rules as NFL.

The manual that came with the unit says that some programs are not eligible to be recorded to DVD. Guess NFL games are one of them.

Bummer, this unit is going back. Not to mention that DVDs can't even really hold a full Jets game. I'd have to put it on Medium quality, which you can't really use for sports. On High quality, it would have to go on 2 DVDs.

Just thought I'd give the heads up in case anyone was thinking of doing something similar.
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:32 AM   #2 (Print)
mitchPond
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Does anyone know if that restriction is enforced through Macrovision or through something in the downloaded listings themselves, like a "do not transfer" bit? If it was just Macrovision then there are ways to get around that, right?
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Old 10-25-2004, 02:14 AM   #3 (Print)
MediaLivingRoom
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Re: Humax unit can't record NFL onto DVD (ugh)

Quote:
Originally posted by Qrashman
I bought the new Humax DVD Recorder, almost solely to have an archive of New York Jets games for my collection. However, I just found out that the recorder doesn't even let you put NFL games on DVD.

Every tivo program is available to be put on DVD except for the Jets and Giants games that I recorded today. Even the World Series, which I expected would have the same rules as NFL.

The manual that came with the unit says that some programs are not eligible to be recorded to DVD. Guess NFL games are one of them.

Bummer, this unit is going back. Not to mention that DVDs can't even really hold a full Jets game. I'd have to put it on Medium quality, which you can't really use for sports. On High quality, it would have to go on 2 DVDs.

Just thought I'd give the heads up in case anyone was thinking of doing something similar.


Holly S@$t!!!


So that means TiVoToGo will have the same rules!! that sucks!!!

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Old 10-25-2004, 03:09 AM   #4 (Print)
Thork
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Red face

This is concerning. This means that in the future, many programs could be blocked and would make the units main purpose worthless. Say if people start burning DVDs', ripping them and posting them for P2P download. Networks freak out, and start blocking their shows from being recorded.....
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Old 10-25-2004, 05:22 AM   #5 (Print)
spankspank
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Quote:
Originally posted by mitchPond
Does anyone know if that restriction is enforced through Macrovision or through something in the downloaded listings themselves, like a "do not transfer" bit? If it was just Macrovision then there are ways to get around that, right?


It must be a new field in the Tivo guide data for these units. A typical NFL game would be on a local channel retransmitted from OTA by the cable provider to an analog channel. i.e. Not Macrovision encoded, not broadcast flag crippled.

Can anyone else verify they can't burn NFL games?
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:25 AM   #6 (Print)
drummer1
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I have a Pioneer 810 and have been burning Eagles games this year without issue. The 810 received a software update last week for PQ issues that improved video quality and I was able to burn yesterday's Eagles Browns game last night.

Maybe Tivo isn't a Jets or Giants fan. Go Eagles.
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Old 10-25-2004, 06:49 AM   #7 (Print)
cwoody222
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Quote:
Originally posted by Thork
This is concerning. This means that in the future, many programs could be blocked and would make the units main purpose worthless. Say if people start burning DVDs', ripping them and posting them for P2P download. Networks freak out, and start blocking their shows from being recorded.....


Networks can't block shows from being recorded 1 time. Recording 1 time (time-shifting) is a consumer right.
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:15 AM   #8 (Print)
stevel
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Yes, but on the DVD recorders with TiVo, burning to DVD is making a copy of a copy, and that can be prevented by the Serial Copy Management System. HBO warned that it was going to start using this as well. I don't know exactly how this information is flagged in the program.

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Old 10-25-2004, 07:22 AM   #9 (Print)
Dennis Wilkinson
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Quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
It must be a new field in the Tivo guide data for these units. A typical NFL game would be on a local channel retransmitted from OTA by the cable provider to an analog channel. i.e. Not Macrovision encoded, not broadcast flag crippled.


Not necessarily. Many (all?) digital cable boxes, and DirecTV receivers, can apply Macrovision encoding to their analog outputs when told to do so by the head end, on any channel, analog or digital. This is becoming increasingly common on VOD and PPV channels.

So, there could be a number of things that could be wrong here:

- it could be a bug (either in the TiVo, the cable box, or at the cable headend) that is causing Macrovision to be turned on and/or detected for the O.P.'s configuration

- it could be some other bug unrelated to Macrovision

- could be that Macrovision is being legitimately enabled. I'm not sure if one could broadcast a Macrovision-encoded signal over the air (at least one of the Macrovision encodings wouldn't be a legal broadcast signal since it could seriously screw with blanking.)

- could be some mysterious, nefarious hidden field in the guide data. I find this answer to be a little too conspiracy-theory-ish to take too seriously, especially considering that the TiVo has

- user error (for example, maybe it's a show transferred to the unit via MRV and the OP just doesn't realize you can't burn those.)

Only one anecdotal report, and not enough information at that, to jump to conclusions, IMHO.

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Old 10-25-2004, 10:54 AM   #10 (Print)
dt_dc
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CGMS (Copy General Management System) perhaps?

CGMS/A is implemented by a couple flags in the VBI. Basically ... you have copy enable (no restrictions), copy one generation and copy never. I think there's also a 'no more copies' setting for one generation content that's already been copied.

I believe that the 'one generation' flag is allowed to be applied to OTA content by the FCC ... however, I haven't heard of anyone actually doing it.

As noted above, HBO recently started applying CGMS:
http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml
http://www.homeboxoffice.com/to/cgm...iate_letter.pdf

Windows MCE is 'supporting' CGMS. You can record one-generation content but then you can't watch that content on another PC or (I think) burn to DVD.
http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/4520-6033_16-4207643.html

Some more on CGMS:
http://www.extremetech.com/article2...,1231546,00.asp

As noted above ... this could be some other unrelated bug or whatever. If CGMS were enabled, I'd expect some other comments (for example, the cable DVRs should disable their 'Save To VCR' functionality for CGMS marked content).
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Old 10-25-2004, 10:56 AM   #11 (Print)
parzec
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Disappointing. I was actually going to go out and buy one of these units. Who in their right mind would spend $400 on one of these knowing that the DVD player may be rendered completely useless?

Can anyone provide confirmation as to whether this is a glich or Tivo policy?
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Old 10-25-2004, 11:02 AM   #12 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by parzec
Disappointing. I was actually going to go out and buy one of these units. Who in their right mind would spend $400 on one of these knowing that the DVD player may be rendered completely useless?

Can anyone provide confirmation as to whether this is a glich or Tivo policy?


a simple test would be to record the Game on one TiVo and then MRV it to the other TiVo. This is different then recording to DVD (different part of TiVo software) but if they have some serious flags set then MRV should not work.

I guess I am saying if MRV does not work - then we have a big part of theanswer. if MRV does work then we need more people to try buring a football game to DVD. I do not have a DVD burner unit but will try the MRV of tonights game
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Old 10-25-2004, 11:12 AM   #13 (Print)
cwoody222
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Does the Humax just let you record straight onto the DVD via a timer setting?

If so, give that a try. ie: take the TiVo UI out of the equation.
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:04 PM   #14 (Print)
Dennis Wilkinson
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Given where CGMS-A data lives (in the XDS area of vertical blanking, NTSC line 20 or 21 depending on the spec you're working to) a bug in anything that touches that datastream (a closed caption encoder, the "TiVoMatic" press-thumbs-up-to-record process, WebTV interactive link encoder, et cetera, the TiVo's VBI decoder) could cause problems. CGMS-A is hardly new (the spec dates back to '95, IIRC) it's just that no one has been using it until HBO's recent announcement.

A few quick web searches didn't turn up any references to the NFL and CGMS-A.

If the OP is still following the thread: what exactly happened when you tried to burn the games to DVD? Was that option just not available, or was there some other error message?

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Last edited by Dennis Wilkinson : 10-25-2004 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:10 PM   #15 (Print)
aindik
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Are we sure we're not overreacting, and that this isn't just a size limitation?
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:20 PM   #16 (Print)
retired_guy
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Quote:
Originally posted by aindik
Are we sure we're not overreacting, and that this isn't just a size limitation?


On the Pioneer 57H, at least, if the size is greater than one DVD, it requests a second (or third, etc.). So there is no size limitation.

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Old 10-25-2004, 12:21 PM   #17 (Print)
dt_dc
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Based on some of the other DRT800 threads ... I highly doubt this is just some random unreproduceable bug

As noted above ... there are lots of products that respect CGMS ... very little content that uses it ... and yes, you'd think you'd hear something if the NFL implemented it ... It's just the ONLY copy control I know of that could (maybe) be applied to analog OTA. I'm not even 100% sure about that ...

Macrovision / ColorStripe / etc. "copy never" schemes can't legally (via FCC) be applied to OTA.

Actually ... another question to the OP is how did he record the games? OTA via antenna or video input from some other source (like Sunday Ticket via DirecTV).
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:28 PM   #18 (Print)
danieljanderson
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Quote:
Every tivo program is available to be put on DVD except for the Jets and Giants games that I recorded today. Even the World Series, which I expected would have the same rules as NFL.



Does this mean there is a separate menu item for saving programming onto a DVD?

Was the game completed before you attempted to save to DVD?
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:51 PM   #19 (Print)
stevel
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The DVD Recorders with TiVo don't support recording directly to DVD - everything goes to the disk first.

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Old 10-25-2004, 12:57 PM   #20 (Print)
cwoody222
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I didn't know that - thanks.
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Old 10-25-2004, 12:59 PM   #21 (Print)
Andrewp75
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Quote:
Originally posted by drummer1
I have a Pioneer 810 and have been burning Eagles games this year without issue. The 810 received a software update last week for PQ issues that improved video quality and I was able to burn yesterday's Eagles Browns game last night.

Maybe Tivo isn't a Jets or Giants fan. Go Eagles.


Does this mean that the Toshivo recevied this update too? Any know?

Thanks!

A
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Old 10-25-2004, 02:46 PM   #22 (Print)
parzec
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
a simple test would be to record the Game on one TiVo and then MRV it to the other TiVo. This is different then recording to DVD (different part of TiVo software) but if they have some serious flags set then MRV should not work.

I guess I am saying if MRV does not work - then we have a big part of theanswer. if MRV does work then we need more people to try buring a football game to DVD. I do not have a DVD burner unit but will try the MRV of tonights game


This is a good strategy. Look forward to reading your results.
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Old 10-25-2004, 02:56 PM   #23 (Print)
Qrashman
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Quote:
Originally posted by retired_guy
On the Pioneer 57H, at least, if the size is greater than one DVD, it requests a second (or third, etc.). So there is no size limitation.


No, because even programs that don't fit on a DVD show up in the menu, they just say that it would take more than 1 DVD. I don't know anyone else with the unit, so I'd really like to hear from someone else if they can burn football games.

For reference, one game (Giants) was on Fox and the other (Jets) on CBS, so its not just one channel, either.
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Old 10-25-2004, 02:57 PM   #24 (Print)
Qrashman
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Quote:
Originally posted by danieljanderson
Does this mean there is a separate menu item for saving programming onto a DVD?

Was the game completed before you attempted to save to DVD?


Yes and Yes.
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Old 10-25-2004, 03:56 PM   #25 (Print)
MighTiVo
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Why is it that the NFL is so concerned about their programs?

Somone needs to start a boycott NFL until they get off thier high horse!
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Old 10-25-2004, 04:03 PM   #26 (Print)
samkuhn
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Sorry if I missed your answer, but was this off a direct cable feed? digitial cable? DirecTV? Dish?

It wouldn't surprise me if DirecTV was putting copy control back onto the signal.

If it is Macrovision and you have a separate tuner (e.g. digital cable), you just need a "video stabilizer" to remove the "instability" created by Macrovision.
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Old 10-25-2004, 04:30 PM   #27 (Print)
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Digital Cable, through Cablevision.
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Old 10-25-2004, 04:44 PM   #28 (Print)
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"TiVo's Plans Lead to Fight On Copyrights"

Interesting article:

"Hollywood studios and the National Football League are seeking to block the maker of the popular TiVo television recorder from expanding its service so that users could watch copies of shows and movies on devices outside their homes."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2004Jul21.html
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Old 10-25-2004, 04:46 PM   #29 (Print)
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Try recording a different channel, say a manual recording on channel 2 or 99. Then manually change the cable box to the NFL game.

If it records to DVD then, the issue is in the guide data.
You can work around the problem with manual recordings from a channel you don't recieve and manual channel change on the cable box.

If it still won't record to DVD, the issue is in the video signal.
The problem could be solved with some kind of macrovision blocker that removes VBI data.

There will always be an analog "hole"

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Old 10-25-2004, 04:47 PM   #30 (Print)
Dennis Wilkinson
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Quote:
Originally posted by Qrashman
Digital Cable, through Cablevision.


If it's your cable box that's flagging the game as needing Macrovision encoding (and most, if not all, digital cable boxes can) then the TiVo is doing what it's told (nothing new -- if you had fed the signal from a rented Macrovision-encoded video into the TiVo and recorded it, you wouldn't be allowed to burn that to disc, either.)

Of course, you wouldn't have been able to tape this game, either, and that still wouldn't mean that this isn't a bug. My cable company, for example, had inadvertenty applied 5C protection to several OTA High Def locals for a short time, which screwed up the recordings of several people using computers w/FireWire to do time-shifting.

It's still not clear what's happening, unfortunately. At least one person with a TiVo/DVD-Recorder (admittedly not the Humax) claims to be burning NFL games with no problems this season. Given that the standards for Macrovision and CGMS-A have been around for so long I'd expect all TiVo/DVD-Recorders to behave the same way.

Anyone else out there burn NFL games to DVD using a TiVo/DVD Recorder of some flavor?

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