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Old 10-28-2004, 10:37 AM   #1 (Print)
kenr
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TiVo to automatically delete PPV movies

According to this article, http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3 , TiVo will be downloading software updates to automatically delete PPV movies after a certain time period.

The article is very vague as to which TiVos will actually be affected.
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:46 AM   #2 (Print)
Ereth
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I wish they would tell us what the time period is.

I'm annoyed that they'll do it AT ALL, but to not know if it's 2 days or a week or 3 months makes it worse.
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:50 AM   #3 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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a good article - nice to hear what TiVo is thinking straight from their legal counsel. I think the macrovision is worth trying to see if a balance can be struck between copyright and consumers. And TiVo being the third party to maintain that balance may get it to work. Note he also implied that if the copyright holders went to restrictive then TiVo could pull the plug on macrovision.


One of the reasons I went with TiVo is because it has such an active hacker community so I especially liked his point " But I think content owners are beginning to recognize that if you make things too restrictive, then consumers will find nonlegal ways to achieve what they want."
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:51 AM   #4 (Print)
jmoak
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oh well...
If nothing else, it sure makes Netflix more appealing.

TV Your Way! ....well, almost
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:51 AM   #5 (Print)
pbanders
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This still won't prevent you from using an analog capture device and a PC to record/edit/burn anything you want.

As soon as Tivo-To-Go is released, I'm going to do a comparison of the video quality and production time between it and analog capture. My guess is that the quality will be very comparable and that the extra time for the analog process will be comparable.

As more and more digital controls on recording are implemented, analog recording will become the only way left to us to manage the content that we want to retain and use. With the move to HD, analog capture may be difficult or impossible, leaving us no options.

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Old 10-28-2004, 10:55 AM   #6 (Print)
Rcrew
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So what impact does this have on DVD burners (or VHS for us diehards)? Is macrovision also going to prevent copying to alternate media? Or is it an encoding that's burried that will make copies unplayable after the expiration as well?
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Old 10-28-2004, 11:09 AM   #7 (Print)
Curbob
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So since I have a series 1 and don't feel I need anymore software updates, is there a way to still get my guide data but not get software updates? I have a liftime subscription, so i feel how ever I get the guide data, they've already got my money
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Old 10-28-2004, 11:10 AM   #8 (Print)
rainwater
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Quote:
Originally posted by pbanders
As soon as Tivo-To-Go is released, I'm going to do a comparison of the video quality and production time between it and analog capture. My guess is that the quality will be very comparable and that the extra time for the analog process will be comparable.


Most likely these PPV recordings will not be transferrable using TivoToGo anyway. Another great Tivo feature
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Old 10-28-2004, 11:16 AM   #9 (Print)
Thork
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"TiVo Plans More Functionality Reductions"

Slashdot is discussing this today also:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=...1423202&tid=129
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Old 10-28-2004, 11:21 AM   #10 (Print)
allan
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Before Tivo, I NEVER even considered PPV. Since getting DirecTivo, I've bought quite a few PPV movies. Introducing this change could cause me to quit buying PPV!

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Old 10-28-2004, 11:25 AM   #11 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by allan

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Old 10-28-2004, 12:14 PM   #12 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by allan
Before Tivo, I NEVER even considered PPV. Since getting DirecTivo, I've bought quite a few PPV movies. Introducing this change could cause me to quit buying PPV!


ah the bitter irony of corporate types making these paranoid decisions
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Old 10-28-2004, 12:15 PM   #13 (Print)
stace
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Anyone know if the DirecTV units will be affected by this?

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Old 10-28-2004, 12:39 PM   #14 (Print)
PaulS
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This is too high a price to be paid by all TiVo users to compensate for the relatively small number of users who'll end up using TivoToGo functionality (if it ever ships). I resent this garbage. Just give me a DVR that works and has a nice GUI, and then leave me alone.

[edit] Finally! Having a DTiVo is better for a change! It'll take DirecTV years to roll out this change!
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Old 10-28-2004, 12:41 PM   #15 (Print)
LifeIsABeach
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Quote:
Originally posted by Curbob
So since I have a series 1 and don't feel I need anymore software updates, is there a way to still get my guide data but not get software updates? I have a liftime subscription, so i feel how ever I get the guide data, they've already got my money


If you get one, you get the other whether it be the phone line, broadband, etc. However, there has not been a Series 1 update in 2 years and I don't think they will have one just for this.

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Old 10-28-2004, 01:10 PM   #16 (Print)
allan
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Quote:
Originally posted by PaulS
[edit] Finally! Having a DTiVo is better for a change! It'll take DirecTV years to roll out this change!


I wouldn't count on it. As slow as Direct is for anything WE want, they'd probably roll this out quickly, maybe with 3.1.1g.

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Old 10-28-2004, 01:53 PM   #17 (Print)
interactiveTV
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
ah the bitter irony of corporate types making these paranoid decisions
Hmmm. The Macrovision policy change is certainly a part of this but somehow I get the feeling that Tivo & NetFlix wouldn't be too sad to see PPV use decline.

I get the sense the arm was twisted all that hard on this one.

_ITV
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:41 PM   #18 (Print)
DrStrange
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What exactly was the Macrovision policy change?
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:50 PM   #19 (Print)
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I can't see this affecting the SA units since my SA TiVo doesn't know when I'm watching a PPV movie. It thinks its recording another channel.

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Old 10-28-2004, 03:04 PM   #20 (Print)
stace
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Quote:
Originally posted by interactiveTV
Hmmm. The Macrovision policy change is certainly a part of this but somehow I get the feeling that Tivo & NetFlix wouldn't be too sad to see PPV use decline.

I get the sense the arm was twisted all that hard on this one.

_ITV


Wouldn't TiVo & Netflix's deal prettymuch qualify as VOD, which *is* affected by this?

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Old 10-28-2004, 03:13 PM   #21 (Print)
dt_dc
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Quote:
Originally posted by morac
I can't see this affecting the SA units since my SA TiVo doesn't know when I'm watching a PPV movie. It thinks its recording another channel.
The actual content will be flagged ... Macrovision flags in the actual video signal. Tivo won't 'know' (or care) it's PPV ... it'll just be responding to Macrovision flags.
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Old 10-28-2004, 03:28 PM   #22 (Print)
interactiveTV
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Quote:
Originally posted by stace
Wouldn't TiVo & Netflix's deal prettymuch qualify as VOD, which *is* affected by this?
Nope. It would be under a different license -- very specific to NetFlix as this type of digital license for movies doesn't exist as far as I know. The expectation generally, though we could all be wrong, is that the product would work in similar fashion to the off-line product and the movies would "exist" on your Tivo until you delete, at which time the next in your queu would begin to trickle down.

The very nature of that product is completely the opposite. The "expiration" of a recorded PPV is like getting a "late fee" from your local video store -- e.g. being forced to return it. The NetFlix/Tivo product would -- once again! -- eliminate that "late fee" and the consumer could -- once again! -- keep the movie for as long as he wants.

Conspiracy theories aside: I don't think Tivo is all that broken up about this.

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Old 10-28-2004, 03:53 PM   #23 (Print)
ilovedvrs
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How is it legal for Tivo to remove functionality we paid for?

The only reason I purchased my Tivo is so I could re-watch my porn I paid $30 for.

This is just insane, yet another reason my next dvr with be wmce.
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Old 10-28-2004, 03:58 PM   #24 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by ilovedvrs
How is it legal for Tivo to remove functionality we paid for?

The only reason I purchased my Tivo is so I could re-watch my porn I paid $30 for.

This is just insane, yet another reason my next dvr with be wmce.


TiVo never said it would allow you to pay once for a pay PER VIEW movie and then watch it a bunch of times. You just figured out on your own or from other TiVo owners that this was possible.

the irony of course is taht the industry does not seem to get that once people knew they could record PPV movies to watch at their own pace and more than once then sales of PPV went up for those consumers. In fine rational thought they put a lid on the ability to keep the PPV and thus will in effect expend resources to dampen sales. Smart
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Old 10-28-2004, 04:49 PM   #25 (Print)
alexcue
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Quote:
Originally posted by ilovedvrs
How is it legal for Tivo to remove functionality we paid for?

The only reason I purchased my Tivo is so I could re-watch my porn I paid $30 for.

This is just insane, yet another reason my next dvr with be wmce.


And you don't believe, that MSFT will also pick up any macrovision flags? They also have DRM on the music, how difficult would it be to add to the Media Center?

edit: I wonder if this is what all the warnings about certain things not being to be burned on my Humax DRT are about. ( to date I haven't seen any being restricted)

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Old 10-28-2004, 04:54 PM   #26 (Print)
Mysteryman
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo

the irony of course is taht the industry does not seem to get that once people knew they could record PPV movies to watch at their own pace and more than once then sales of PPV went up for those consumers. In fine rational thought they put a lid on the ability to keep the PPV and thus will in effect expend resources to dampen sales. Smart


Perhaps they know all too well that folks are buying more PPV because of this. Maybe their first clue was lower DVD sales. Why would you want to by Shrek on DVD when you still have the darn this recorded on you 140+hour TiVo? Keep in mind I have no numbers about DVD or PPV sales. I'm just speculating.
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Old 10-28-2004, 05:02 PM   #27 (Print)
drewman
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Quote:
Originally posted by ilovedvrs
How is it legal for Tivo to remove functionality we paid for?

The only reason I purchased my Tivo is so I could re-watch my porn I paid $30 for.

This is just insane, yet another reason my next dvr with be wmce.


These same features are going to be introduced to WMCE. You can't honestly think that Microsoft would be less draconian than TiVo?

Andrew

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Old 10-28-2004, 05:42 PM   #28 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mysteryman
Perhaps they know all too well that folks are buying more PPV because of this. Maybe their first clue was lower DVD sales. Why would you want to by Shrek on DVD when you still have the darn this recorded on you 140+hour TiVo? Keep in mind I have no numbers about DVD or PPV sales. I'm just speculating.
Shrek, when it was released, was the best selling DVD of all time so perhaps that isn't the greatest example to speculate with (http://www.dmswire.com/shrek.htm)

Extra credit for the timely DreamWorks mention: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?fr=slv1-wave&d=v1&s=dwa

Actually, the window between PPV and DVD sales is so small now (averaging about 35 days currently) that there isn't an effect on DVD sales

http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Multi...10032&oliID=213

Considering that PPV is about a $2b+ business but "Adult" accounts for about $700m of that (numbers are hard to come by on that one)...then look at that Shrek home video number of $420 million...throw in Finding Nemo which did $400m in its first 14 days of home video sales...then look here:

http://www.dvdexclusive.com/charts_...t_dvd_sales.asp

In a word: PPV just doesn't matter all that much

I still believe Tivo isn't upset about this.

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Old 10-28-2004, 05:43 PM   #29 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mysteryman
Perhaps they know all too well that folks are buying more PPV because of this. Maybe their first clue was lower DVD sales. Why would you want to by Shrek on DVD when you still have the darn this recorded on you 140+hour TiVo? Keep in mind I have no numbers about DVD or PPV sales. I'm just speculating.


true enough on DVD sales - but the Movie Industry needs to learn from the music industry which has finally figured out that there are those who do not want to buy the CD but want to download the content that matters to them for reuse.

Now DVDs are more of a one peice of content (a film) for the most part so tha tchanges things but only slightly. What I want is to obtain an image of the films I want to watch as they come out for rental via some medium. I may want to watch it twice or half now and half later etc.. I want a reasonable time frame to watch it in - 7 days AT LEAST.

if they can give me that in a download then it saves them the cost of DVD manufacture , tracking and distribution. I rarely buy DVDs so they would make more money off me in rentals if it was easier to download and view more of their product. ANd PPV does not appeal to me because once I start I have tio finish it at that time - not tomorrow and maybe I want to watch it once normally and once with commentary on, etc.. deleted scenes , extended version alternate endings and so on.
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Old 10-28-2004, 08:59 PM   #30 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by drewman
These same features are going to be introduced to WMCE. You can't honestly think that Microsoft would be less draconian than TiVo?

Andrew


Yeah but the difference is Tivo, without serious hacking, is a closed system. With something like MCE or any HTPC based PVR, once you've got the show recorded to disk, you're always gonna have a way in. Whether it's via analog outs, hacks, or even transcoding, you will always have a way around CP and DRM for PC based solutions.
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