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Old 11-11-2004, 03:30 PM   #151 (Print)
hefe
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Quote:
Originally posted by gchance
You've forgotten that Sawyer isn't the conman we were shown. He may have repeated the action later in life with a couple he met, but in the context of the flashback, he was the little kid. Sawyer's not associated with the loan shark guy at all.

Greg


He was doing to the kid what was done to him. He was that kid figuratively, not literally.

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Old 11-11-2004, 03:32 PM   #152 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turtleboy
So,

Why was Sawyer in Australia? That question was never answered.

Probably, he was hiding from the gangster who he owed money to.

Why was he flying back to L.A.?

Also, no answer.

This is the first back story that didn't really answer that question.


Did we learn why the Korean couple was going from Australia to LA?

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Old 11-11-2004, 03:36 PM   #153 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hefe
He was doing to the kid what was done to him. He was that kid figuratively, not literally.
Yes!

Remember that in the letter, 'Sawyer' took the money, and people died. In the flashback, our Sawyer saw the kid, and realized that he had come full circle, becoming what he once had hunted. In fact, he said so. Upon seeing the kid in the flashback, Sawyer called off the deal, and left the house and the money behind.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:37 PM   #154 (Print)
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Vacation, I believe.

So far almost nobodies backstory is fiilled. The only two that seem "compelte" to me is Locke, Charlie, and maybe the Korean couple.

We know Locke was a pathetic loser who also happened to be a paraplegic and that Charlie was a "Rock God" whose older brother got him hooked on smack. The Korean man was a mobster and the woman was the daughter of his boss.

Everyone else's backstory is still mostly up in the air.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:37 PM   #155 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hefe
You have to remember that everything they did was based on the fact that they knew who had the medicine, and that there was an immediate need. The fact that they were wrong is irrelevant to their actions or motives at that time. Taking the details of the torture out of the discussion for a moment, there is absolutely no way on God's green earth that they should not have tried to get the medicine in some way, and there was certainly no reason to think that one of the other castaways had a remedy.


I agree with that in principle.

How it turned out was them deciding to possibly trade Sawyers life for Whiny Girl's. Turned out her asthma was so bad that Hero Doc could just talk her out of it at first and Korean Chick could spread weed paste on her for it.

My point throughout this entire thread is that the things they *knew* were based in their perceptions of one another, not facts, but they relied on them to do some very terrible things. Once they discovered they were wrong not even as much as an "I'm sorry" was offered to the victim.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:39 PM   #156 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
Charlie was a "Rock God" whose older brother got him hooked on smack.


Just to clarify, Charlie did it himself. His brother didn't as much as offer him any. Charlie stole some of his brother's stash. Charlie is soley responsible for that choice
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:42 PM   #157 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
We know Locke was a pathetic loser who also happened to be a paraplegic

I'm not sure I would go that far. A pathetic loser?? How so?
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:49 PM   #158 (Print)
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"Turned out her asthma was so bad that Hero Doc could just talk her out of it at first and Korean Chick could spread weed paste on her for it."

Asthma is complicated, but it is based in part on anxiety, which is why Jack could bring her back by calming her down. For a lot of people, hearing a doctor say you can breathe and helping you breathe would be very calming.

Eucalyptus (the weed paste ingredient) is used in cough drops (it's the "lyptus" part of "Halls with mentholyptus"), so yeah, it would help her breathe.

However, all that said, if kind words and eucalyptus were always effective at treating asthma, then no one would have inhalers, would they? As it turned out, these things helped Shannon this time, but there was no guarantee, and no guarantee it will help next time.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:52 PM   #159 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeters
I don't think she's been shown lying flat on her back? She's been shown partially upright during her conversations. In a position not unlike pregnant women who, due to complications, are under doctor's orders to stay in bed.




This was one scene that irked my wife. And she knows firsthand that doctors warn pregnant women to try to lie on their side as much as possible.

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Old 11-11-2004, 03:53 PM   #160 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy66
Just to clarify, Charlie did it himself. His brother didn't as much as offer him any. Charlie stole some of his brother's stash. Charlie is soley responsible for that choice


Responsible, yes, but that decision wan't mde in a vacuum. Nothing is ever that simple. What Charlie's brother did was help him to realize his dream, and basically hold that hostage against the lifestyle that he refused to change at the time. Charlie weakened and gave in to the life, rather than lose his band, his music, the things he lived for. Liam isn't responsible, per se, but he enabled Charlie, and did nothing to help his own brother.

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Old 11-11-2004, 03:53 PM   #161 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by mqpickles
However, all that said, if kind words and eucalyptus were always effective at treating asthma, then no one would have inhalers, would they? As it turned out, these things helped Shannon this time, but there was no guarantee, and no guarantee it will help next time.


Nope, no guarantee, I was just pointing out that their assumption that Whiny Girl's life was in immediate risk was as erroneous as their assumption that Sawyer had the inhalers.

In the end they were wrong about everything and appologized for nothing.
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:56 PM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by jschuman
I'm not sure I would go that far. A pathetic loser?? How so?


Pathetic loser is in the eye of the beholder. I guess because he was disabled, apparently lived alone and spent money on phone sex lines, fantasized about being a Colonel and, and worked some sort of menial job where he wasn't respected makes him at least a societal outcast.

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Old 11-11-2004, 03:56 PM   #163 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hefe
Responsible, yes, but that decision wan't mde in a vacuum. Nothing is ever that simple. What Charlie's brother did was help him to realize his dream, and basically hold that hostage against the lifestyle that he refused to change at the time. Charlie weakened and gave in to the life, rather than lose his band, his music, the things he lived for. Liam isn't responsible, per se, but he enabled Charlie, and did nothing to help his own brother.


That's way different than "Hooking him on Smack" Charlie had choices and he made them. Liam didn't hold him down, he didn't even offer it. If Charlie was weak, that's understandable, many of us are. It's just not attributable to Liam.
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:03 PM   #164 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy66
That's way different than "Hooking him on Smack" Charlie had choices and he made them. Liam didn't hold him down, he didn't even offer it. If Charlie was weak, that's understandable, many of us are. It's just not attributable to Liam.


It's a fine point of disagreement. I do think it is Charlie that is responsible ultimately, but I do not believe that Liam has acted innocently and has done nothing wrong. He is guilty of a separate "crime" in my view. People who enable other people in matters like these, especially when they would have had the power or ability to cause a different action and choose not to, have not acted morally...in my view. Not trying to say it was equal, or say Charlie is not responsible, because he is.

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Old 11-11-2004, 04:15 PM   #165 (Print)
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Ah, after all day we've found common ground. I don't think Liam is innocent by any stretch. I just assign most of it to Charlie.
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:20 PM   #166 (Print)
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Jack didn't apologize, but he did save Sawyer's life. Even after Sawyer said "If it was reversed, I'd watch you die."

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Old 11-11-2004, 04:31 PM   #167 (Print)
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I wanted to bring up a question someone asked earlier. It appeared in the previews last week, that the pregnant girl was in labor. Several of the guys had her up in the air and were rushing her somewhere in the previews. I didn't see any of that in this episode. In the preview, it appeared she was on the beach but we know that she moved to the cave this week and next weeks episode seems to be all about Sayed, so what gives?
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:36 PM   #168 (Print)
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It doesn't count as saving someone's life when you were the one (or party to) putting it in jeopardy in the first place.
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:50 PM   #169 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanMeScot
It appeared in the previews last week, that the pregnant girl was in labor. ... I didn't see any of that in this episode.
I had noticed something similar a couple weeks ago with Locke. They showed a preview of him looking up at the beast which didn't happen until two episodes later instead of just the next episode. Same thing happened where the preview showed him saying "We hunt!" (in response, if I remember correctly , to them discussing what to do about food.) This also didn't happen until two episodes later.
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Old 11-11-2004, 04:57 PM   #170 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hefe
Pathetic loser is in the eye of the beholder. I guess because he was disabled, apparently lived alone and spent money on phone sex lines, fantasized about being a Colonel and, and worked some sort of menial job where he wasn't respected makes him at least a societal outcast.


I view Locke's back story this way:

He was a "loser" who was thwarted from achieving his dreams not by his disability (paraplegia) itself, but by the world's preconceptions and expectations of him because of his disability.

Remember, he signed up for an Australian outback "walkabout". He was 100% confident that he could do it with his disability, but the company managing the walkabout would not let him go.

His catch phrase is "don't tell me what I can't do!" He was willing to transcend his disability, but society wouldn't let him.

The "island" is a new beginning for Locke. The others don't know his background or of his disability. So, they have no reason to doubt him when he implies that he is an expert hunter (he clearly is expert in the sense of book learning, he is/was a bookworm-nerd, but not actual practice). So, he is free to succeed at hunting (and other things) unencumbered by the expectations of others that he will fail.

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Old 11-11-2004, 05:11 PM   #171 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BeanMeScot
I wanted to bring up a question someone asked earlier. It appeared in the previews last week, that the pregnant girl was in labor. Several of the guys had her up in the air and were rushing her somewhere in the previews. I didn't see any of that in this episode. In the preview, it appeared she was on the beach but we know that she moved to the cave this week and next weeks episode seems to be all about Sayed, so what gives?


Take previews with a grain of salt. They have actually doctored one preview I am aware of. In previewing the episode where Locke pulls Jack off the cliff and then they have a conversation, they changed a sentence.

In the preview Locke says: "I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw, was magic."

In the episode, he says: "I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw, was beautiful."

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Old 11-11-2004, 05:18 PM   #172 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hefe
Take previews with a grain of salt. They have actually doctored one preview I am aware of. In previewing the episode where Locke pulls Jack off the cliff and then they have a conversation, they changed a sentence.

In the preview Locke says: "I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw, was magic."

In the episode, he says: "I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw, was beautiful."


This kind of stuff is inevitable in previews. They've frequently got to put together a preview before they've finished editing the episode being previewed.

Often different takes end up being used in the final episode than were used in the preview, or scenes/shots get cut entirely.

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Old 11-11-2004, 05:23 PM   #173 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fish Man
This kind of stuff is inevitable in previews. They've frequently got to put together a preview before they've finished editing the episode being previewed.

Often different takes end up being used in the final episode than were used in the preview, or scenes/shots get cut entirely.


Except in this case, the change was made for the trailer.

The statement Locke made in the episode was one, continuous, unedited sentence with no cutaways in audio or video.

For the trailer, they cut the end off that sentence, and lifted a word out of an entirely different sentence that happened earlier in the same conversation.

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Old 11-11-2004, 05:38 PM   #174 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skittles
Oh, and I must say it, so pardon the cliche. Didn't like the music at the end. Pulled me out of the Lost mood too much. Although, considering the songs like that only come right before the credits, maybe that's not such a bad thing.


I would have preferred Until it Sleeps for the music to wrap up this episode.

Until it Sleeps

Where do I take this pain of mine
I run but it stays right by my side

So tear me open, pour me out
These things inside they scream and shout
And the pain still hates me
So hold me until it sleeps

Just like a curse, just like a stray
You feed it once and now it stays
Now it stays

So tear me open, but beware
Thereís things inside without a care
And the dirt still stains me
So wash me until Iím clean

It grips you so hold me
It stains you so hold me
It hates you so hold me
It holds you so hold me
Until it sleeps...

So tell me why youíve choosen me
Donít want your grip
Donít want your greed
Donít want it

Iíll tear me open, make you gone
No more can you hurt anyone
And the fear still shakes me
So hold me until it sleeps

I donít want it.....no

It grips you so hold me
It stains you so hold me
It hates you so hold me
It holds you, holds you, holds you
Until it sleeps...

So tear me open, but beware
The painís inside without a care
And the dirt still stains me
So wash me til Iím clean

Iíll tear me open, make you gone
No longer will you hurt anyone
And the hate still shakes me
So hold me until it sleeps
Until it sleeps
Until it sleeps
Until it sleeps
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Old 11-11-2004, 05:55 PM   #175 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by cvillacci
Sawyer forced Kate to kiss him in order to get the medicine. OKAY so he did not spell it out, but he sure IMPLIED IT BIG TIME. Thus Kate was forced to kiss someone she did not want. Isn't that a kind of rape? Is Sawyer blameless? Doesn't that make Sawyer a rapist? I bet if this was HBO and not network TV, the price Kate would have had to pay would have been greater.

You got jumped on for this statement, but I agree somewhat. While it doesn't "make him a rapist," he certainly seems to be trying to dominate and intimidate with snide, sexual comments and behavior, like the strutting up to Kate in the nude and making some comment.

Anybody read James Clavell's "King Rat"? It's about a prisoner of war becoming an "entrepreneur." To me there isn't a lot of gray with Sawyer - the character is bad news. And it's done to inject an electricity and danger into the show. Of course, as all of the marooned start working their way down Maslowe's hierarchy of needs, I think they'll all become more savage.

I too think Locke appeared to be manipulating Sayid in a negative way.

Love this show!
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Old 11-11-2004, 06:00 PM   #176 (Print)
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I also love the show and like to read all of the comments here. Sometimes I get a new perspective and other times, my own ideas seem to be shared by many.

I think they need to make Sawyer more 2 dimentional. He just makes my skin crawl. When I saw that he was doing to the family what was done to him and it bothered him, I thought good! I like that most of the other characters have some good and bad in them but Sawyer creeps me out.

Like I said earlier. My punishment would not have been torture, it would be to withhold watter, make him find his own, grab all stuff not his and make it group property. I would only let him back in the group if he started to contribute to group rather than take or be at odds with the group.

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Old 11-11-2004, 06:34 PM   #177 (Print)
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Originally posted by cvillacci,
Quote:
Sawyer forced Kate to kiss him in order to get the medicine. OKAY so he did not spell it out, but he sure IMPLIED IT BIG TIME. Thus Kate was forced to kiss someone she did not want. Isn't that a kind of rape? Is Sawyer blameless? Doesn't that make Sawyer a rapist? I bet if this was HBO and not network TV, the price Kate would have had to pay would have been greater.

In a way, yes, it would be taking advantage of another person sexually (under duress), but it's cloudy. Remember, Kate told Jack that Sawyer said to her that they had a "connection". She said it with some reservation as to how true that could be.
I have a feeling that Kate has a history of choosing the "bad boys" of the world. If so, I could see Kate choosing the dark side of the force.
I'll never understand women. I've had it happen to me. Men who are the worst kind of lowlifes. Men whose futures are written in dog sh*t. Maybe women feel like they can fix the guy or the feeling of danger appeals to them. I don't know.

It's looking more like Lord of the Flies with each passing episode.

Trebor.
P.S. I liked and laughed at Charlie's implying that Hurley (big boy) was hording food. HAHAHHA. I was wondering when that would happen.

P.S.S. You can't blame that one on me! Tell Charlie to ask about the weather.

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Old 11-11-2004, 06:43 PM   #178 (Print)
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Originally posted by hefe
Pathetic loser is in the eye of the beholder. I guess because he was disabled, apparently lived alone and spent money on phone sex lines, fantasized about being a Colonel and, and worked some sort of menial job where he wasn't respected makes him at least a societal outcast.


"All men lead lives of quiet desperation"

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Old 11-11-2004, 07:36 PM   #179 (Print)
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this show was not recording. TiVo says it was removed from the guide data. WTF

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Old 11-11-2004, 07:50 PM   #180 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy66
If I steal a bunch of stuff and you come to my house and look through the stuff I stole along with the things that are rightfully mine, there will be a beating. If I'm caught looking through somebody's things (their actual things and/or their ill gotten gains) I would expect it to be a physical situation.
By that same logic, if you behave exactly the way that Sawyer is behaving, he should expect some level of retribution. In both cases that level of violent retribution is not justified... IMHO.

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