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Old 11-17-2004, 03:48 PM   #121 (Print)
kkesler
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Ok, here is one. I have 4 Tivos currently, first was a 20 hour standalone, and have owned and modified various Tivo units for several years. Also have a stack of dead Tivos, as the newer ones are evidently not as well made as the older ones. I may not have many posts, but I am most certainly not a newbie, as I only usually post tech questions.

Now then, I will say I don't like this new "plan", ESPECIALLY if I lose the 30 second skip. I don't care if it is a "backdoor".

Tivo has spoiled me, so now I will behave accordingly by stamping my feet and throwing a tantrum.

And actually, since you registered Sep 2003 as compared to my Feb 2002, I guess that makes you the "newbie".

Kurt Kesler

Quote:
Originally posted by Inundated
Since you opened this box up...

I'm sitting here wondering why most of the folks who are upset about this are newbies who have less than 20 posts. It almost makes one wonder how this "invasion" happened. I wasn't going to say anything about it until I saw this message.

BTW, I don't believe advertisements as a rule are "GREAT" (though some are actually clever and well produced), and like most everyone else, I skip through them whenever possible.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:50 PM   #122 (Print)
mantene
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Quote:
You pay to go to the movies. They put commercials before movies now.



You pay for cable...

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:50 PM   #123 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by robaustin
You pay to go to the movies. They put commercials before movies now.

--*Rob



Yes and that's why I complain to management, see fewer movies at the theatre, go on off peaks days and show up a little late in order to miss them.


If I owned the projector and couldn't bypass the ads, I'd really be upset.


Wait a sec, in a way *I do*.


Here's an idea. Why don't they offer the following premium service.

Tivo will charge you more money and you get the convenience of having extra ads and a slower fast forward function.

Last edited by cat_jesus : 11-17-2004 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-17-2004, 03:51 PM   #124 (Print)
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Tivo pop-ups???

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/17/1538219
TiVo to Sell Your Fast-Forward Button
Television
The Almighty Buck

Posted by jamie on Wednesday November 17, @11:27AM
from the sky-is-falling-but-first-this-word dept.


Thomas Hawk writes "PVRblog is reporting today that TiVo will begin to place banner advertisements on your screen when you are fast forwarding. As one of the whole points for people getting a TiVo is to remove obtrusive advertising, it seems like a really bad move to force advertising on people at the exact moment that they are using your technology to avoid advertising. This act points to the desperation of TiVo and their management team and although it might help them in the short run it will most certainly backfire in the long run." This is ironic for a company whose slogan used to be "TV Your Way," but not surprising, since its CEO says he wants to move to a largely advertiser-supported revenue stream. I've bought three TiVos in the past four years, but my next PVR will run MythTV -- unless HR2391 passes and makes me a criminal for skipping commercials.

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:52 PM   #125 (Print)
Dennis Wilkinson
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Quote:
Originally posted by skaeight
That said, how will this new "feature" work if I use 30 second skip?


If it's an extension of the current tagging code, then it depends on where you land at the end of the skip and how long before you hit the skip again. If you land during the tags duration, you will probably see the ad appear only to immediately vanish again upon skipping a second time.

Based on TiVoPony's description, this sounds exactly like the existing TiVoMatics (or whatever we're supposed to call them these days... iPreview?) but with a custom graphic instead of the "press thumbs up for more info" widget. All the other details being described about this "new feature" exist now on the box.

See:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=135561

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:53 PM   #126 (Print)
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Actually, this is already being discussed over in the Coffee House.

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Old 11-17-2004, 03:55 PM   #127 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skittles
Actually, this is already being discussed over in the Coffee House.


What!! There are "other" parts to this board?!?!?!
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:03 PM   #128 (Print)
smak
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Quote:
Originally posted by DVDerek
It was only a matter of time but I feel betrayed. I pay for the ability to skip past what I don't want to see. TiVo shouldnt present me with other items I don't want to see while I'm doing this. It's just wrong. I'll wait until I see the implementation before going to crazy.


Again, i'd just like to add a big huh???

You only have 1 TV, and still have two eyes. Did you pay that much attention to what you are fast forwarding through to care what you see?

Does it matter if it's a black screen, a commercial or 3 clowns juggling when you're fast forwarding through it?

-smak-

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:04 PM   #129 (Print)
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well, if it were porn i might pay attention but otherwise i am only checking to see if the show is back on

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:05 PM   #130 (Print)
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Well we all knew this day would arrive. It was a fun ride while it lasted but in the end Madison Avenue holds the reins. At least they won't drive them into the ground like ReplayTV...

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:07 PM   #131 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BoyScout
Oh, and BTW....Just because you bought a TiVo and a subscription doesn't mean that the networks programming is now free. They put the content out with the cost of a few advertisments. If they aren't making money on the content, they will stop producing it.

Therefore, if we continue to ignore the advertisments, the quality of network broadcast goes down and the subscription costs go up and the Pay per view choices increases.

There is NO free lunch. It ALL has to be paid for at one point. Pay me now, or pay me later. They will get paid.


But I will say it again as I said it earlier. How does this fill the void in ad revenue that the networks experience. The networks are the ones providing our shows. They can give those shows to us for free because they get ad revenue. The revenue from this new ad method goes to TiVo, not to the networks, so how does this new "feature" address the "free lunch" issue? IT DOESN'T! So you can't use that as justification for TiVo adding this feature.


I'm trying to be level headed about this issue, and not jump to conclusions. I'm hoping that when March rolls around and this feature is implemented I will hardly notice it. However, my wife and I have been talking more and more about getting a second TiVo. The recent events (ex: the PPV issue) have made me a little nervous about how much faith I put into this company. This just adds to that fire. I'm not going to abandon TiVo like a doomsayer, but I will definitely now put off the possibility of a second TiVo until I can better decide just where exactly the company is headed.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:09 PM   #132 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kdaveler
What!! There are "other" parts to this board?!?!?!



I don't buy it.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:10 PM   #133 (Print)
johndierks
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Ads while Fast Forwarding?

Sorry if this got posted before, I didn't find it in search.

http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/11/1...9&tid=98&tid=17

Any validity to this story?
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:11 PM   #134 (Print)
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:12 PM   #135 (Print)
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After further review....

Now that I completely understand what's going on, I recant. BFD.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:12 PM   #136 (Print)
Tsiehta
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I couldn't care less about seeing a banner while I'm fast forwarding. When I fastforward, I still watch the screen to see if I'm missing an interesting commercial (not to mention to know when to shift back to regular time).

Kudos to the advertisers for finding a way to reach me in a format that I chose.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:14 PM   #137 (Print)
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I have some mixed feelings on this. As you can see from TiVo area post counts, I have spent enough time on here to know what's going on.

If these ads are not obtrusive, like the current iPreviews I have appreciated, then it is fine with me.

However, TiVo seems to be drifting away from the company that lots of us love. Has there been anything new out of TiVo in the past few years? We got the Humax, but the Pioneer already filled that niche. Where's the CableCARD model that we all know needs to be made if TiVo wants to expand? Where's the HD model for non-DIRECTV users? Where's anything new in software that is a real, honest-to-God benefit to the consumer?

IMNSHO, there's something wrong in Aviso if they are using their engineers to develop things that help their pockets and the entertainment industry over things that actually benefit the consumer.

EDIT: I see that DB seems to be taking the same approach. I think vB 3 is ready enough for our board, along with other things.

Last edited by csyria : 11-17-2004 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:19 PM   #138 (Print)
rainmkr
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well i for one won't support any company that uses this form of advertising. so screw them.. let tivo make some money
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:20 PM   #139 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by americanway
Actually the "content" isn't Tivo's to sell. Tivo is going to be receiving monies for product they did not produce. and that is a violation of copyright law.

I'll be writing the ABC, CBS, NBC & Fox this afternoon to give them a heads up.


The ads wil be a part of the TiVo interface. It's no different than advertising on onscreen channel guides that are a part of most cable boxes.

TiVo's not breaking any laws.

And even if they were I seriously doubt the networks need you to give them a "heads up".
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:22 PM   #140 (Print)
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I'm not sure I understand why this angers people. Is your ability to fastforward limited in any way? Do you get mad when advert companies find new and innovative methods and places to run their ads? That's how the game works.

At least in this instance, the consumer won. The advert companies had to adapt to us.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:25 PM   #141 (Print)
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If anyone is interested check out The Persuaders on PBS

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ows/persuaders/

they state that the advertisers are responsible for the advert clutter and having to break free from the clutter to get to people...

they also say that people are like roaches...you spray and spray and spray and they get desensitized to the adverts.

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:25 PM   #142 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by smak
Again, i'd just like to add a big huh???

You only have 1 TV, and still have two eyes. Did you pay that much attention to what you are fast forwarding through to care what you see?

Does it matter if it's a black screen, a commercial or 3 clowns juggling when you're fast forwarding through it?

-smak-


Yes, as a matter of fact, IT DOES MATTER TO ME. Is there a problem with that? I quite enjoy my ability to control my advertising intake (and eventually the advertising intake of my Children). Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. It's part of the reason I payed for the service.

Like I said, I'm waiting for the implementation before I decide if this is worth flipping out about, but I think it's a perfectly legitimate concern. TiVo's continued attempts to squeeze advertising revenue out of the box have me concerned because I just don't know where it stops. This is why I'm concerned about recomending that my friends make a $400 investemnt in TiVo. I think this market will shake out quite a bit over the next year. So I'll tell them to wait.

Like I said in my original post, I'd be more forgiving if they were also delivering something of use to end users. TiVo2Go, CableCard TiVos? Do something.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:31 PM   #143 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tsiehta
I'm not sure I understand why this angers people. Is your ability to fastforward limited in any way? Do you get mad when advert companies find new and innovative methods and places to run their ads? That's how the game works.

At least in this instance, the consumer won. The advert companies had to adapt to us.


Ditto.

Some of these people just totally blow my mind. They flip out over rampant speculation, then Pony posts, explains exactly what's happening and people either ignore him or completely misread what he says and still go nuts. People get a grip. This is a glorified VCR we're talking about.

If you don't like the changes, walk. Don't let the door hit you. (If I were you, I'd wait until I actually saw if for my self, but hey - Why let facts get in the way?)

TiVo needs to do what they need to do to survive and thrive. You don't have a "Divine Right to No Ads" because you bought a TiVo. You may want all your TV to be free, but someone has to pay the piper. If you want to mooch, carry on.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:35 PM   #144 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DVDerek
Yes, as a matter of fact, IT DOES MATTER TO ME. Is there a problem with that? I quite enjoy my ability to control my advertising intake (and eventually the advertising intake of my Children). Maybe that doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. It's part of the reason I payed for the service.

Like I said, I'm waiting for the implementation before I decide if this is worth flipping out about, but I think it's a perfectly legitimate concern. TiVo's continued attempts to squeeze advertising revenue out of the box have me concerned because I just don't know where it stops. This is why I'm concerned about recomending that my friends make a $400 investemnt in TiVo. I think this market will shake out quite a bit over the next year. So I'll tell them to wait.

Like I said in my original post, I'd be more forgiving if they were also delivering something of use to end users. TiVo2Go, CableCard TiVos? Do something.


So, are we to believe that you think Tivo should continue to be able to deliver other things and survive based on subscription fees and product sales alone? It sounds to me like you're suggesting that Tivo NOT try to make money to continue to exist. IT DOESN'T stop. Advertising will always exist. We all know that, it's just a matter of what will be the next form it takes. Product placement in shows. Would that anger you?

Are you seriously suggesting that the banner run during your FF would be detrimental to the advertising intake of yourself and your children? It's a banner!!!

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Old 11-17-2004, 04:35 PM   #145 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MattDing
Ditto.

Some of these people just totally blow my mind. They flip out over rampant speculation, then Pony posts, explains exactly what's happening and people either ignore him or completely misread what he says and still go nuts. People get a grip. This is a glorified VCR we're talking about.

If you don't like the changes, walk. Don't let the door hit you. (If I were you, I'd wait until I actually saw if for my self, but hey - Why let facts get in the way?)

TiVo needs to do what they need to do to survive and thrive. You don't have a "Divine Right to No Ads" because you bought a TiVo. You may want all your TV to be free, but someone has to pay the piper. If you want to mooch, carry on.


Everyone has a right to their opinions though. Just because it doesn't bother you doesn't mean everyone else who has a different opinion is wrong. The fact is there are alternatives that many users have decided to go to. And while Tivo is doing what "they need to do to survive", they are no longer innovating, but just catering to the movie studios and advertisers.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:38 PM   #146 (Print)
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Still have not subscribed

Almost three years ago---from day one---I calculated that a tivo subscription was not necessary. Recording the 4000 or so shows manually has been so effortless----once I set the generic blocks of time to record, and specified which shows with a vcr programmer----I average 23 seconds a day tweaking the schedule---that I am sure I will never become a subscriber. My recorder remains my runaway number one favorite piece of technology in spite of not being a subscriber.

Biggest drawback---every three months I have to make a call to the 800 set up number to set the clock. It runs just a bit slow.

Am I avoiding all this latest stuff about advertizing by operating it this way?
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:39 PM   #147 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by rainwater
No, they are free and cost less per month than Tivo.


And they're only available to a very limited amount of cable subscribers and we have no control over whether our cable company uses them in our area.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:42 PM   #148 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by W Auggie H
I have not read through every single comment on this topic yet so I don't know this has been pointed out, but one speculation I read was that in the future TiVo would also be offering a premium service above and beyond what is offered today. That speculation goes on to point out that eliminating those new pop-up adds could be part of that premium service.


I sense a new hack being written to place the ad's into the bit bucket instead of the screen.
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:45 PM   #149 (Print)
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TiVo Will No Longer Skip Past Advertisers
The tool that lets viewers control the TV will soon sport 'billboards' and track viewing habits.


By Gina Piccalo, Times Staff Writer


When it debuted in 1999, TiVo revolutionized the TV experience by wresting control of screen time from advertisers, allowing viewers to record shows and skip commercials. TiVo's slogan said it all: "TV your way."

Behind the scenes, though, TiVo was courting advertisers, selling inroads to a universe most customers saw as commercial-free. The result is a groundbreaking new business strategy, developed with more than 30 of the nation's largest advertisers, that in key ways circumvents the very technology that made TiVo famous.

By March, TiVo viewers will see "billboards," or small logos, popping up over TV commercials as they fast-forward through them, offering contest entries, giveaways or links to other ads. If a viewer "opts in" to the ad, their contact information will be downloaded to that advertiser — exclusively and by permission only — so even more direct marketing can take place.

By late 2005, TiVo expects to roll out "couch commerce," a system that enables viewers to purchase products and participate in surveys using their remote controls.

Perhaps even more significant is TiVo's new role in market research. As viewers watch, TiVo records their collective habits — second by second — and sells that information to advertisers and networks. (It was TiVo that quantified the effect of Janet Jackson's Super Bowl "wardrobe malfunction," reporting a 180% increase in the number of replays reported by viewers.)

For advertisers it's an extraordinary boon, a quicker and more effective way than they've ever had of measuring the effects of their TV commercials.

For viewers, TiVo's new strategy means the technology famously christened "God's machine" by Federal Communications Commission Chairman Michael K. Powell is rapidly becoming a marketer's best friend, proving that try as they might, consumers cannot hide from marketing.

"TiVo looked like it was going to be the weapon of mass destruction of Madison Avenue," says Robert Thompson, Syracuse University professor of television and pop culture. "However, we knew that the [TV] spot ad would not go gently into the night, and this is the next battle strategy."

The shift underscores what industry observers have been saying since TiVo started — that TV advertising and programming must change dramatically to survive.

These are anxious times for marketers, who are faced with commercial-busting technology that's evolving faster than they can keep up. Broadcast-ready cellphones, hyper-real video games, interactive DVDs and the Internet give consumers the on-demand, often commercial-free entertainment they crave.

Traditional network television viewing, by comparison, can seem antiquated. The number of American households with a TiVo or TiVo-like recording system is expected to increase from 5% to 41% in five years, according to Forrester Research, which studies technology's effect on business.

For this reason, ad agency executives who initially ignored TiVo and its digital video recorder technology, or DVR, are now praising it as an industry savior.

"I look at TiVo being first generation of the TV advertising of the future," says Tim Hanlon, a vice president at Starcom MediaVest Group, one of the world's largest media-buying companies, with clients including General Motors Corp., Procter & Gamble Co. and Best Buy Co. "There's a whole witch's brew of change coming to the linear television form."

But what about TiVo's devotees, those folks who send the company fan mail and photos of their pets posed with TiVo boxes, and act as missionaries, converting their friends to the technology?

Some say they don't mind a little pop-up advertising — just so long as they can fast-forward through it — because it could help keep TiVo in business. (A September report from Forrester shows that DVR owners typically fast-forward through 92% of commercials.)

Others are wary of the changes and concerned the company's priorities may be shifting away from the consumer.

"A company can get too big for its britches, you know?" says Bill Calogero, a Chicago computer business analyst and TiVo subscriber since 1999. "I just don't want them to interfere with the experience. If it isn't broke, don't fix it."

Yet from its inception, TiVo engineered its system with advertisers and networks in mind. While competitor ReplayTV had allowed its subscribers to skip commercials entirely — TiVo restricted its fast-forward capabilities so viewers could still see the commercial, albeit eight times faster than intended. (ReplayTV last year was forced by litigious studios and networks to adopt a more TiVo-like system.)

TiVo also sold space on its main menu to advertisers as a venue for commercials that ran longer than the usual 30- or 60-second spots. And the company developed "tagging" technology as a way for networks to advertise TV shows by embedding a green thumbs-up sign in the corner of the screen during a show's promo, reminding the viewer to record it. Advertisers saw tagging as an opportunity and jumped at it.

By 2002, TiVo was selling "tag" time to Lexus and Best Buy. The thumbs-up icons appeared during live commercials, inviting the viewer to "click here" for a chance to enter a contest, receive a DVD or brochure or watch a glossy, long-form commercial.

Over time, General Motors, Nissan Motor Co., Coca-Cola Co., Walt Disney World and Royal Caribbean International cruise line paid their way into the program. And all the while, TiVo recorded viewer response.

The tags proved so lucrative for TiVo, and so popular with viewers, that the Alviso, Calif.-based company expanded their capabilities significantly. They created "billboards," more robust tags that are larger and promote greater brand awareness with logos and text.

Until now, the new technology has been relatively subtle and not widely seen; by spring, it will be hard for TiVo users to miss. (The technology is part of the software provided to all TiVo users.)

"The message we really want to get across," says Davina Kent, TiVo's advertising and research sales manager, "is that we now have a dedicated road map for advertising."

There are TiVo users who say that as long as the new technology doesn't interfere with their ability to fast-forward through a commercial, they're happy to ignore it. It's the timesaving apparatus they say they cherish most.

"To be able to see things when I want to see them is the real advantage," says L.A. radio promotion executive Jennifer Sperandeo.

Other TiVo users say they hope the new partnerships prove lucrative enough to keep the company afloat. Five years after its launch, TiVo still hasn't turned a profit and doesn't expect to until January 2006. (Kent says the advertising revenue will probably bring down the cost of TiVo to its 2 million subscribers — currently $12.95 a month.)

And in the year since Rupert Murdoch's News Corp. took control of satellite operator DirecTV Group Inc., TiVo's largest source of customers, the future of that relationship has grown increasingly uncertain.

"I want them to be successful," says Gary Beck of Long Beach, who bought his first TiVo in 1999 and now has three. "They have clawed their way up. As long as they're not giving out personal data, I don't mind."

Some observers, however, interpret TiVo's new ad campaign as a profound change in its ideology that won't sit well with devotees.

Matt Haughey, whose Portland, Ore.-based PVRblog.com gets 10,000 hits a day (PVR is short for personal video recorder), says he wasn't surprised by the shift. After last year's lawsuit against ReplayTV and TiVo's hiring of NBC executive Martin Yudkovitz as president, he figured the glorious "David versus Goliath" days, when TiVo was the best defense against corporate tyranny, were numbered.

"My first impulse is, this is going to start the slippery slope," Haughey says.

"TiVo is dependent on a psychology," says Neal Gabler, a senior fellow at the Norman Lear Center at USC Annenberg and author of "Life the Movie: How Entertainment Conquered Reality." "It is not just a technology. You don't want people to intrude in your life. That's the whole point of it — to give you control of that mechanism…. I think they're going to find themselves losing customers. I say this as a TiVo subscriber."

To Syracuse University's Thompson, the concept of interactive advertising interrupts the most relaxing aspect of watching TV. "People seem to forget that what we've loved about television so dearly is its abject passivity," he says. "That's why they call it couch potato. TV was so great because it wasn't interactive."

But TiVo research suggests that notion is out-of-date. Between 5% and 20% of TiVo viewers given the opportunity to "participate" in an ad — either by clicking on a tag or by selecting a long-form commercial from a main menu — take it.

That's because TiVo has done its homework and knows its customer, Kent says. The new ads intrigue viewers instead of annoy them. They pop up and disappear in a matter of seconds if the viewer isn't interested. "You'll never see TiVo roll out any kind of intrusive advertising," Kent says. "It's very core to our mission."

What remains to be seen is whether consumers will embrace this culture shift at TiVo.

"Watching [an ad] is one thing," TiVo loyalist Calogero says. "Interacting with it is something that the consumer is going to need a little more reassurance that their information isn't being sold. I mean, TiVo knows how many times I rewinded to see Janet Jackson's breast come up. How much more do they know about me?"
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Old 11-17-2004, 04:49 PM   #150 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
fantastic four TiVos
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,704
Quote:
Originally posted by Fubar411
If TiVo goes through with this, I will be very unhappy. There would be no point in keeping my TiVo, I'll just get a PVR from my cable company or a Panasonic that has HD and DVD burning.

This stinks TiVo, and Slashdot is fired up about this.



now who is being Naive. You think the cable companies wont figure out how to sell this type of advertising as well.
and with their catch up to Tivo as quick as they can software how much you want to bet it will be more of a pain to deal with on their DVR. You think they rented DVRs just to make their customers happy or becasue cable companies knew about this idea as a revenue source as well long before they started renting them.

You all need to untwist your shorts and either sell your TiVo or not, but don't think other commercial DVRs will not have this soon enough.

Last edited by ZeoTiVo : 11-17-2004 at 05:02 PM.
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