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Old 02-03-2005, 02:00 PM   #1 (Print)
timg
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TivoBill - it's been a month, any update on TivoToGo for Mac?

It's been a month since the windows version was released. Is there any update on the status of the Mac version?
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:24 PM   #2 (Print)
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No updates at this time.
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:39 PM   #3 (Print)
timg
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Thanks for the reply. Guess I'll check back in another month.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:43 PM   #4 (Print)
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Don't hold your breath. Try checking back in 6 months.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:49 PM   #5 (Print)
TiVoBill
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Quote:
Originally posted by timg
Thanks for the reply. Guess I'll check back in another month.


No need for a new thread each month. I am sure that there will be a very public announcement when the support is available.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:06 PM   #6 (Print)
dropd
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Quote:
Originally posted by TiVoBill
No need for a new thread each month. I am sure that there will be a very public announcement when the support is available.


Encouraging small detail: Bill said WHEN, not IF support becomes available.

I'll take little crumbs.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:10 PM   #7 (Print)
timg
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I'm sure there will be an announcement when (or if) the Mac version is released, but I am kind of hoping that there will be some updates along the way, if for no other reason than to give us Mac users hope. The official "we are working on it" isn't very reassuring...
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:59 PM   #8 (Print)
timg
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Quote:
Originally posted by davezatz
I think the question really is, "Will Tivo To Go Mac support ever be released before the company is bought and priorities and partnerships shift?"


Well, with all the executives leaving, the priorities and partnerships can change even without the company being bought.

Personally, with the Comcast thing, the Direct TV thing, etc, I'm a little worried about the company staying around long enough for my lifetime membership to break even.
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Old 02-03-2005, 07:00 PM   #9 (Print)
timg
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Hey, what happened to that post I just replied to?
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:42 PM   #10 (Print)
mikestanley
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Ummm - what exactly are you thinking an update would be other than "we are working on it" ?

They're not going to pop in and say, "Yep, we've reached build 1.923f. Bug-fixed an issue with iDVD - just wanted to give you an update!"

They've said they're working on it. TivoBill just said there will be an announcement WHEN it is ready. If you think we're going to get much more than, "Yep, still working on it" or "No updates at this time" you may need to adjust your expectations down a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by timg
I'm sure there will be an announcement when (or if) the Mac version is released, but I am kind of hoping that there will be some updates along the way, if for no other reason than to give us Mac users hope. The official "we are working on it" isn't very reassuring...
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Old 02-04-2005, 01:35 PM   #11 (Print)
timg
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikestanley
Ummm - what exactly are you thinking an update would be other than "we are working on it" ?

They're not going to pop in and say, "Yep, we've reached build 1.923f. Bug-fixed an issue with iDVD - just wanted to give you an update!"

They've said they're working on it. TivoBill just said there will be an announcement WHEN it is ready. If you think we're going to get much more than, "Yep, still working on it" or "No updates at this time" you may need to adjust your expectations down a bit.


I never said I expected Tivo to do anything.

What I'd like for an update is a projected release date. Maybe let us know when the thing is in beta testing and when they expect to release it. Also, system requirements (is it 10.3 only, or does it require 10.4) and what software it will work with (do I need to buy Toast, or can I use Apple's tools?). But mostly I'd like them to definitively state that they will release the software in my life time.

Of course, I expect Tivo to completely ignore my wishes, so I really don't think I need to adjust my expectations. I'll just wait here on the sidelines until Tivo either makes my dreams come true (release the Mac version) or dashes them entirely.
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Old 02-04-2005, 01:52 PM   #12 (Print)
LuxCal
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Quote:
Originally posted by timg
I'm sure there will be an announcement when (or if) the Mac version is released, but I am kind of hoping that there will be some updates along the way, if for no other reason than to give us Mac users hope. The official "we are working on it" isn't very reassuring...


Yeah, but it's certainly more reassuring than the official " " when I (or anyone else) ask about linux support...

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Old 02-04-2005, 02:16 PM   #13 (Print)
timg
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Quote:
Originally posted by LuxCal
Yeah, but it's certainly more reassuring than the official " " when I (or anyone else) ask about linux support...


Yes, the situation for Mac users is slightly better than for Linux users ...

The funny thing is, the Tivo itself runs a version of Linux. You'd think Tivo might actually employ one or two people who could make a Linux version of the desktop a reality....
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Old 02-04-2005, 02:27 PM   #14 (Print)
Propynyl
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are you joking? I signed up 1/3 and STILL dont have the 7.1 update on my Tivo. Dude...this is TV, get used to waiting...and waiting...and waiting...
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Old 02-04-2005, 02:33 PM   #15 (Print)
LuxCal
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Originally posted by Propynyl
are you joking? I signed up 1/3 and STILL dont have the 7.1 update on my Tivo. Dude...this is TV, get used to waiting...and waiting...and waiting...


I just got mine last night, and I signed up on 1/6; any chance you mistyped your TSN?

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Old 02-04-2005, 03:41 PM   #16 (Print)
jasonsewell
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Quote:
Originally posted by timg
Yes, the situation for Mac users is slightly better than for Linux users ...

The funny thing is, the Tivo itself runs a version of Linux. You'd think Tivo might actually employ one or two people who could make a Linux version of the desktop a reality....


It'll never happen. Releasing TiVoToGo for Linux or Mac OS isn't a matter of having the expertise to develop for the platform. To wit, a Mac version of TiVoToGo was demoed a long time ago.

The problem that TiVo is having is determining how to support non-Windows platforms with DRM-encumbered files. The open nature of Linux (and the Mac OS to a lesser extent) precludes TiVo from ever releasing TiVoToGO for these two platforms. Strong DRM requires secrecy and complicity on the part of the operating system vendor. TiVo is unlikely to get this from Apple and cannot (by definition) get this from the open source Linux community.

Mac and Linux users ought not to hold their breaths waiting for TiVoToGo.

And conversely, TiVo ought not to expect Mac and Linux users to remain loyal when/if something better comes along. For example, EyeTV has the potential to wipe the floor with TiVo.
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Old 02-04-2005, 03:57 PM   #17 (Print)
Andrew_S
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasonsewell
For example, EyeTV has the potential to wipe the floor with TiVo.


Completely different applications, markets, expectations, etc. This is an extremely poor comparison. EyeTV is a niche product, in a niche market and is in no way is a threat to Tivo. And that's coming from a Mac user.

I think a previous post brought up a good point. Until Microsoft releases their DRM for Windows Media on the Mac, I don't see TivoToGo released on Mac. Tivo could have developed or used another DRM technology, but that would have precluded them from taking advantage of Microsoft's new "Play Anywhere" strategy.
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Old 02-04-2005, 04:30 PM   #18 (Print)
jasonsewell
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Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_S
Completely different applications, markets, expectations, etc. This is an extremely poor comparison. EyeTV is a niche product, in a niche market and is in no way is a threat to Tivo. And that's coming from a Mac user.


I own a TiVo and an EyeTV 500. Of course the EyeTV is a niche product and while its user interface has a long way to go before it can compete with the TiVo, it already beats the TiVo by one very important measure:

Only the EyeTV allows me to capture HD programs, save them to my Macintosh, and burn them to a DVD if I choose. EyeTV ignores the "broadcast flag", and the files that it records are cleartext, 1920x1080, 29.97 FPS MPEGS.

But you're right. EyeTV probably doesn't present much of a threat to TiVo. You could probably argue that the entire Mac/Linux user base doesn't really matter to TiVo as they collectively represent less than 10% of TiVo's customers.

The point of my original post wasn't to suggest that EyeTV will be TiVo's downfall. But you have to remember that Mac users are already in a niche. If someone comes along and provides a better-than-TiVo solution for Mac users, they'll switch in a heartbeat. I believe that EyeTV is half way there.

-Jason
TiVo, EyeTV, Mac, PC, Linux user

Last edited by jasonsewell : 02-04-2005 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 02-04-2005, 04:34 PM   #19 (Print)
BiloxiGeek
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasonsewell
The open nature of Linux (and the Mac OS to a lesser extent) precludes TiVo from ever releasing TiVoToGO for these two platforms. Strong DRM requires secrecy and complicity on the part of the operating system vendor. TiVo is unlikely to get this from Apple and cannot (by definition) get this from the open source Linux community.


Ok I admit I'm no expert on the world of open source software and all the legalities that are involved but I don't understand that stance.

What prevents Tivo from developing a DRM module for Linux? Just because the OS is open source doesn't require every peice of software for Linux to be open source. As long as Tivo doesn't use any open-source code they should be able to develop the DRM software and release it for Linux users in binary form. Just like they have with the current Tivo Desktop.

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Old 02-04-2005, 04:56 PM   #20 (Print)
LuxCal
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Quote:
Originally posted by BiloxiGeek
Ok I admit I'm no expert on the world of open source software and all the legalities that are involved but I don't understand that stance.

What prevents Tivo from developing a DRM module for Linux? Just because the OS is open source doesn't require every peice of software for Linux to be open source. As long as Tivo doesn't use any open-source code they should be able to develop the DRM software and release it for Linux users in binary form. Just like they have with the current Tivo Desktop.


Um, they have not released the current (or any earlier) version of TiVo Desktop for linux in either source or binary form. From the TiVo Desktop page:

"TiVo Desktop 2.0 is only available for Windows (R) XP and 2000, for other systems, see our earlier versions."

"Earlier versions" above is a link to a point lower on the page, where you can get TiVo Desktop v1.3 for Windows 98 or ME, or TiVo Desktop for Mac v1.8.

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Old 02-04-2005, 04:58 PM   #21 (Print)
jasonsewell
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Quote:
Originally posted by BiloxiGeek
Ok I admit I'm no expert on the world of open source software and all the legalities that are involved but I don't understand that stance.

What prevents Tivo from developing a DRM module for Linux? Just because the OS is open source doesn't require every peice of software for Linux to be open source. As long as Tivo doesn't use any open-source code they should be able to develop the DRM software and release it for Linux users in binary form. Just like they have with the current Tivo Desktop.


TiVo could release a closed, binary-only kernel module for Linux, but they would run into some major hurdles:

1) DRM is hard. Microsoft has probably spent hundreds of millions developing theirs and it's still broken.

2) DRM on Linux is very hard, perhaps impossible. Tony Mantler was quoted as saying "Making DRM in Linux secure would be like winning a hand of poker against someone who can change all the playing cards at will". The open nature of Linux makes it possible for any programmer to intercept the cleartext media stream before it goes out the video port. More likely, someone would recover the decryption keys from the kernel module thus preventing the need to capture and trans-code the stream at all.

3) Closed, binary-only Linux kernel modules will possibly break on subsequent kernel releases.

4) The Linux community would not embrace DRM and would do their best to break it. I would be surprised if *any* DRM scheme on linux survived 24 hours.

-Jason

Last edited by jasonsewell : 02-04-2005 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 02-04-2005, 05:07 PM   #22 (Print)
BiloxiGeek
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Ok, so it's more technical reasons rather than legal reasons. Those make sense to me.

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Old 02-04-2005, 05:18 PM   #23 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dropd
Encouraging small detail: Bill said WHEN, not IF support becomes available.

I'll take little crumbs.


Yes, but on the downside, he said there was no need to start a new post each month, implying that it will be many months before we do see the code.
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Old 02-04-2005, 05:52 PM   #24 (Print)
jpd
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sethb
Yes, but on the downside, he said there was no need to start a new post each month, implying that it will be many months before we do see the code.


An optimist would read that and say it means the release will be in less than a month.

I've got to wonder about the whole DRM thing when it comes to recordings of television programs. We have had VCRs for over 20 years with absolutely no DRM and a Supreme Court decision saying that it's legal. So why does TiVo need a DRM if all we are getting is a feature that puts TiVo on par with VCRs in the transportability of recordings? OK, maybe the digital nature of the recording makes it easier to duplicate and transfer, but these are television recordings and as such most don't have much of an "aftermarket" sales life. Some do, but I think most people will continue to buy DVDs if they are priced cheaply enough rather than going to all the time and trouble of burning their own copies of DVDs from files transferred from a TiVo that may also have to have commercials edited out etc. 90% of the use will probably fall within what the Supreme Court said was fair use. Legally TiVo didn't need the DRM. IMO.
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Old 02-04-2005, 06:05 PM   #25 (Print)
timg
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Yes, I think the "digital nature of the recording" changes everything. The DRM is probably required because of that. Didn't some group take Tivo to court over TivoToGo last year?
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Old 02-04-2005, 06:13 PM   #26 (Print)
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The "digital nature" only appears to change everything. It was by no means difficult to copy a video tape. Presumably the degradation of quality was a deterrent to multiple copies, but with compressed digital video that gets recompressed, you also have degradation of quality. And even with the DRM you can still burn DVDs, and nothing stops you from duplicating the DVD.

TiVo could have watermarked our names on the bottoms of recordings that got transferred instead of using DRM. I think that would have been a much more effective deterrent to illegal copying, and would have avoided all the issues of writing DRM software for multiple platforms.
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:22 PM   #27 (Print)
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No one expects a day-to-day progress report on TiVoToGo for the Mac, but it would be great to have at least a rough estimate of when it will be released, without any guarantees.

For example, is it planned to be released within the next 6 months?

While it's nice to hear that they are working on it, that gives no indication of how hard they are working on it, how seriously they take this, or whether TiVoToGo for the Mac will go the way of AAC support.
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Old 02-04-2005, 07:43 PM   #28 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally posted by jasonsewell
4) The Linux community would not embrace DRM and would do their best to break it. I would be surprised if *any* DRM scheme on linux survived 24 hours.

-Jason


agreed,
the DRM scheme lasted 8 days on windows before people posted here on a quick way to break it. Within a couple of days people were messing around with Nero.

so maybe the fact that encryption can be broken is not the biggest reason
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:42 PM   #29 (Print)
falconbrad
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TivoToGo for Mac will never be released. If there's one thing I've learned from dealing with companies as of late, it's that unless what you want is done RIGHT NOW, it might as well never be done. "Sometime in the future" could, by definition, mean an inifinite time in the future, i.e. never. And please excuse me, but I have good, if not great, reason to believe that that is the case. I will most likely be dropiing my Tivo and opting for a computer-centric solution here soon. Unless the DTV Media Center supports Macs. Then it's goodbye to Tivo and I'm never looking back. Sorry guys, you aren't instilling confidence...
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Old 02-05-2005, 11:21 AM   #30 (Print)
jpd
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Quote:
Originally posted by falconbrad
TivoToGo for Mac will never be released.... I have good, if not great, reason to believe that that is the case.


So what is the reason? So far all I have seen on this board is rampant speculation, with two exceptions:
- an official statement from TiVo that the Mac version is in development
- eyewitness accounts of seeing the Mac version running at a demo nearly a year ago
Both of these seem to me to be solid evidence that there is a functional but somehow incomplete version that TiVo has every intention of releasing.
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