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Old 02-21-2005, 03:34 PM   #1 (Print)
hendrix2308
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Return to Tivo from DVD

Bought a Humax Tivo for my 3rd TIVO purchase. So far so good. It appear that I can transfer from VCR tapes onto the TIVO and then onto a DVD. How about going from a TIVO burned DVD back onto the hard drive. The idea would be to burn random shows to a DVD ,for temporary storage. Then put a collection back onto the hard drive in order to eventually put a group of common programs onto a 2nd DVD. May sound confusing, hope for some insight.
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Old 02-21-2005, 08:31 PM   #2 (Print)
jlac839
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At least on my Pioneer DVR-57H you can't copy back to the hard drive from the dvd drive directly. There just isn't a menu option to accomplish it. I would imagine that theoretically the software could support it but I suspect that this capability is disabled to avoid any copyright issues. Tivo seems to at least appear to be squeaky clean on this subject. I have not tried connecting another dvd player to the external inputs (i.e. as if it were a VCR) and copying from there but I imagine all you'd get would be the equivalent of a streamed video with no menus or anything.

This whole situation may change when DVD units get TivoToGo functionality sometime later this year (so they say).
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Old 02-21-2005, 10:07 PM   #3 (Print)
hendrix2308
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I would understand if the content was copyrighted, but if the content were just a handful of TV programs then I copyright issues shouldn't be a problem?
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Old 02-22-2005, 06:48 PM   #4 (Print)
jlac839
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Unfortunately, I think the situation is that Tivo is unwilling to provide the copyright owners with any evidence that might provoke a lawsuit. Technically, every TV program is copyrighted. Even if it doesn't include a signal in the video stream to flag it as such, programs usually have a copyright statement in the credits. In the past people have been able to ignore this fact because the technology available - the broadcast mechanisms and recording mediums (e.g. VCRs) - were based on analog technology and there was no way to enforce the copyright. The landmark legal case in which the Supreme Court ultimately upheld Sony's contention that VCR's "time-shifted" programs without impinging on copyright paved the way for widespread sales of VCRs. This led to the release of movies and other content on VHS tapes and to piracy of such content. This in turn led to the copyright owners using technologies like Macrovision to prevent copying but these technologies were not incorporated into broadcasts (to my knowledge). The battle to find ways to protect copyrighted materials against those who find ways round the protection mechanisms has been going on for the past 30 years in TV, records, etc.

With the coming of the digital age, the situation has changed slightly in that copyright owners can use technology to embed flags and signals in their material and manufacturers of recording equipment, services, and techniques have to be careful to toe the line about what "time-shifting" etc. can mean and thus are compelled to recognize the flags and signals and prevent certain forms of copying. However, the flags and signals have been poorly implemented in the past causing lack of legitimate playback etc. and standards for their implementation are still in flux. There's a lot of argument about programs like the Sopranos that HBO is now "broadcasting" with DRM components embedded that permit a single recording and consider the recording on the HD is it. You can't then dump the program to DVD. Is this system the right or wrong way to protect copyright? It's up to you!

The whole subject of digital rights management is extremely complicated and embroiled in legal wrangles because what suits one copyrighter doesn't suit another etc. One could argue that because Tivo DVD recorders allow you to make digital copies of a program that you recorded, you should be able to import it and re-record it along with other shows. However, this is regarded as a grey area - thus Tivo doesn't permit it. Tivo takes the position that their function is to enhance your TV experience, not provide a general purpose DVD manipulation system. There are exceptions of course. Tivo does let you import material from a tape or camera but does so on the pretext that you must be the copyright owner since you made the recording and probably want to watch it on your TV and possibly make DVDs for backup and passing to family and friends. This topic introduces an example of copyright protection limits. On my Pioneer unit, I can import a recording from a macrovision protected VHS tape and watch it on the TV but Tivo will not permit me to create a DVD of this content. So copying to the HD for viewing purposes is ok but copying to DVD is not because I could try to sell this DVD. Since Tivo controls the software on my unit, they could choose or be compelled to change this capability in the future and, for example, refuse to even copy Macrovision (or other coded) materials on to the HD.

The same kind of thinking causes them to refuse to include the ability to edit materials before creating a DVD (for example, to remove commercials). Tivo doesn't even officially support the n-second skip feature that you can program into your unit to speed up commercial skipping and certainly don't include a feature that recognizes the start and end of commercial break signals and lets you skip between them. Support of this sort of feature caused the demise of a Tivo rival, ReplayTV. Clearly, the "time-shifting" argument only goes so far! Basically, while most of us aren't in the business of bootlegging materials we suffer a loss of convenience and capability because of those that do. Tivo's attitude seems to be that any area of controversy should be avoided.

The whole area will continue to be the subject of much discussion in and out of the courts for many years to come.

If you are interested, here are some quick links to blogs and such discussing some of the issues...

http://www.darknet.com/2005/01/tangling_over_d.html
http://longtail.typepad.com/the_lon...s_drm_evil.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2004/12/2...nds_to_wir.html
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/01/0...drm_strawm.html

I'm sure you can find others.
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Old 02-28-2005, 02:57 PM   #5 (Print)
PurpleRiver
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Red face Dvr-57h


Hi:
I have had my Pioneer DVR-57H for almost a year, had to have the hard drive replaced (under warranty). I went back to my old VCR's while it was in the shop. I like it but most of the tricks like TIVO 0 (to play the intro movie) wont work. Before I sent it in, I burned lots of shows to disk. Some have two or three shows (like friends) on the whole disk. I would love to put it back on the hard drive and reburn these so I have a full disk of thoes shows.

Does any one know what jlac839 is referring to? I think it would be great if we could edit our "off the air" programs. Stuff like go to a point, cut to start, cut to end, would be great. Copy & "cut point to point" would be even better.
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Old 02-28-2005, 07:11 PM   #6 (Print)
lafos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleRiver

Hi:
I have had my Pioneer DVR-57H for almost a year, had to have the hard drive replaced (under warranty). I went back to my old VCR's while it was in the shop. I like it but most of the tricks like TIVO 0 (to play the intro movie) wont work. Before I sent it in, I burned lots of shows to disk. Some have two or three shows (like friends) on the whole disk. I would love to put it back on the hard drive and reburn these so I have a full disk of thoes shows.

Does any one know what jlac839 is referring to? I think it would be great if we could edit our "off the air" programs. Stuff like go to a point, cut to start, cut to end, would be great. Copy & "cut point to point" would be even better.


Your best bet is to rip the DVD onto your PC, edit the files, then author a new DVD. Quite a bit of work. Nero has tools to do this if the disk isn't encrypted as commercial DVDs are.
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Old 03-03-2005, 09:36 AM   #7 (Print)
Tivortex
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jlac839, very balanced and well written summery of where we are with DRM and how we got here. Most often I see these explainations turn into a rant. I myself hate DRM but I realize that we as consumers are going to have very little input into the process other than voting with our dollars. That is a dismal prospect based on how few people really understand the issues at stake. Your post sheds light with out the usually associated heat.

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Old 03-03-2005, 10:53 PM   #8 (Print)
tivoasb
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Transfer Back With Best Results

Digital -> to Analog -> to Digital Method

If you have a dvd player with S video outputs, This would be the easiest way to transfer back to the tivo in a high quality.

Digital -> to Digital

I think Tivo is currently doing all they can to block a direct digital to digital transfer from a dvd to the tivo. (its the whole digital piracy issue)

At th e tivo websitem, search the help topic "Getting Started with the TiVoToGo™ Feature"

There is a little note at the bottom that says:

"* The TiVoToGo Home Media feature is not currently available for DVD recorder models from Toshiba, Pioneer, or Humax. The TiVoToGo feature will not be available for Series1 DVRs or for DIRECTV DVRs with TiVo."
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Old 03-05-2005, 10:24 AM   #9 (Print)
DrDave
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Can't you just plug in a 2nd DVD player into where you have the VCR now? My Dish satellite box also has line inputs, so I think I can record from there if I wanted.

This is probably not the best editing platform though..
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Old 03-10-2005, 07:00 PM   #10 (Print)
jlac839
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DrDave,

I haven't tried connecting a 2nd DVD player to the inputs on my unit in place of a VCR but I think it would work presuming the DVD doesn't contain any copyright flags (see my diatribe above!). I don't know if the Tivo created DVDs contain any such signals. If they do, then while you might be able to transfer the video to the HD, I expect that Tivo would prevent a write to DVD. If there are no copyright flags then the write to DVD would probably work.

As you say, it probably isn't a good editing platform because the Tivo/VCR interface basically allows you set up the Tivo to record from the VCR source for a specified amount of time and will only capture the video signal as a continuous stream. None of the program information stored on the original DVD would be preserved (unless you actually record the DVD menu interaction while you start the show). If the DVD from which one is trying to copy has several shows, I expect that each one would have to be copied individually since when Tivo created the DVD, it places a menu structure around each recording. Perhaps this isn't a significant problem but it is certainly inconvenient. Lafos' comment about doing the job on a PC is definitely a better way to go.

Tivo2Go will further muddy the waters when it (finally :-) arrives on our units. I haven't spent a lot of time investigating it yet.

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Old 03-10-2005, 07:19 PM   #11 (Print)
jlac839
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Tivortex,

Thank you for your kind comments. The whole DRM situation is indeed a horrible mess and isn't going to get better any time soon. It's a typical example of what happens when democracy bumps into capitalism! I think a lot of the problem stems from the lack of standardization which is again typical when you examine the rate at which the new technologies are hitting the market. Expectations set by earlier technologies are now being denied or modified sometimes haphazardly as the marketplace tries to cope with a huge number of home entertainment products that have many features in common and no common function set (as yet) because the marketplace hasn't yet decided what that function set should be - and if there will be several sets, how they will cooperate! In between all this battling for the consumers' dollars is the desire to protect copyrights but no agreed way to do it. Thus the muddle. I agree wholeheartedly that the copyright owners should be able to protect their rights but they are sometimes completely ignorant of or simply disregard the flexibility that users now expect with regard to music and video.

I personally think that the iTunes compromise system that allows a certain number of copies is reasonably fair but some rights owners take the view that even a single copy is breaking the law (and affecting their revenue of course). The mistake they make is that in not providing flexibility, they implicitly present a challenge that is taken up by savvy individuals who anonymously publish mechanisms to circumvent each DRM method as it appears. This varies from the simplistic permanent marker on the CD to cover up the code track to complex decoding software that is freely available for download after a little bit of hunting around on the net.

Anyway, love it or hate it, DRM is something we have to cope with at the moment. Hope this comment didn't come across as a rant as it certainly wasn't intended to.

Thanks again.

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