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Old 03-15-2005, 11:03 AM   #61 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203
The DirecTV deal didn't slow down SA development, why would this? In fact the DirecTV deal forced SA development forward because TiVo had to rewrite the software to work on that hardware and in the process ended up rewriting the SA software too.

TiVo's CableCARD strategy is teetering on the decisions of the FCC. If they decided to give CableCos an extension on the integrated box ban, and deny TiVo's request to force Multi-Stream CableCARD deployment TiVo is screwed. They said in their own argument that no right minded person would pay for a TiVo box, subscription and the rental of two CableCARDs to get the functionality they can get from the CableCos for a few $ a month. Which says to me that they never intended to actually release the dual CableCARD box anyway. Which means unless the FCC decides in TiVo's favor this deal may be the only way to get an HDTiVo that works with cable in the near future.

Dan


I agree with all that you said and it was exactly my point - Now TiVo may not push as hard on CC 2 deadline (speculation on my part) and it can survive on the comcast deal in the meantime which is good for TiVo but bad for me as I do not live in a comcast area and unless a stand alone cable card TiVo comes out I will not see two tuners and HD until CC 2 comes along. As you point out, and I have said as well, TiVo is not keen to put out a kludged up CC 1.0 box with two cards and the resulting complexity/cost in the box. So this deal may mean I get to enjoy my current SA single tuner SD TiVos until well into 2007, while I was hoping to have the option on a two tuner HD Stand Alone in 2006
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:05 AM   #62 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
Dan-

Why do you think a two cablecard box is so unpalatable?

They rent for like a buck or 2, I’d gladly pay a dollar or 2 a month to enable the second tuner on my pvr.

Do you think the hardware cost of the second card would add significantly to the up front cost?


I think they charge about $10 a month per cablecard. But for a DVR, I don't see the point at all of getting a cablecard.

This is great news. I already have Comcast and have been planning on dropping DirecTV entirely. If I can snag a beta slot, that can happen sooner rather than later.

BTW, I can't understand why anyone would want to buy an SD Tivo at this point in time. I don't understand why Tivo would release a new SD Tivo, or why DirecTV would be threatening to release it's own SD DVR later this year. SD is dead.

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Old 03-15-2005, 11:16 AM   #63 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
Dan-

Why do you think a two cablecard box is so unpalatable?

They rent for like a buck or 2, I’d gladly pay a dollar or 2 a month to enable the second tuner on my pvr.

Do you think the hardware cost of the second card would add significantly to the up front cost?
I suspect the problem is much more the financial viability of the entire model. It would be only a year before the model would be obsolete. All the teething pains and expense of learning cable-card 1 (and the current cable-card TV manufacturers and the cable companies can attest to the teething pains ) would have to be redone the next year for the new cable-card 2 model. Not much window at all to sell the cable-card 1 TiVo's before people would start waiting to buy the cable-card 2 models instead!

TiVo isn't a big enough company to afford the cost of extra models that are guaranteed never to pay for themselves.

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Old 03-15-2005, 11:19 AM   #64 (Print)
Dan203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
Curious- what are the current rules?

I thought all the major MSO’s had to allow customers to have cablecard devices as of last summer.

So although a cablecard Tivo wouldn’t be the house box of Comcast for another year, isn’t it possible that you could buy a CC tivo now (if it existed) and get it to work on most cable systems?


Right now cable cos are only required to offer CableCARD 1.0 PODs. They are not yet forced to use them for their own boxes. The thing they are trying to get delayed is a mandate that says that they can only deploy CableCARD enabled boxes after July 2006. This mandate would force the development of CableCARD 2.0 which allows for dual tuners, as well as bidirectional communication for things such as VOD and PPV. If successfully delayed 3rd parties such as TiVo would be forced to develope units which take two CableCARDs just to stay competitive.

What leads me to believe that TiVo will not deploy a two card box is their argument against the extension. They specifically say that the box will be harder to develope and more expensive. And even say something along the lines of... What right minded person would pay for the hardware, TiVo subscription and the cost of renting two CableCARDs when they can get the same functionality from the cable cos for free. In an attempt to find a middle ground TiVo suggested that if the extension was approved that the FCC force the cable cos to deploy multi-stream capable CableCARD 1.0 PODs so that 3rd parties like TiVo can develope dual tuner devices without the need for two cards.

Dan

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Old 03-15-2005, 11:20 AM   #65 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
Dan-

Why do you think a two cablecard box is so unpalatable?

They rent for like a buck or 2, I’d gladly pay a dollar or 2 a month to enable the second tuner on my pvr.

Do you think the hardware cost of the second card would add significantly to the up front cost?



it is not the cost of the card but the complexity inside the TiVo and needing some way to control both cards and get them to the hard drive with timing and so forth, etc..

I think of it this way. Imagine two completely seperate web sites that write to the same database tables (for some reason). now you have to write and test a bunch of code that makes sure the two sites do not stomp on each other in the database or get a row lock messed up and make the database unuseable until it is reset or simply eat up a bunch of database resources by each having to open its own connections and whatever else it needs.

now you get practical and combine the two web sites onto one server(or put in a middleware that works for both) and now up in the software above the database you manage the read nad writes through standard session and thread management that is already a mature design pattern and easy to write adn only one app is using resources in the database and it needs only half the resources to do the same job as before.


so a two cable card TiVo would reduce the complexity of setting it up but the coax in would still have to be split and hooked to both cards not the best approach for HD
and this does not solve a lot if the internal design problems TiVo has looked at on a two tuner analog box. This is why only DirectTiVo has two tuners and why the Comcast box will easily have two tuners as well. the signal is integrated and strong BEFORE getting to the TiVo which then only has to deal with streams of data within one app instead of two instances of an app hooking up to two hardware interfaces.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:20 AM   #66 (Print)
MichaelK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
I suspect the problem is much more the financial viability of the entire model. It would be only a year before the model would be obsolete. All the teething pains and expense of learning cable-card 1 (and the current cable-card TV manufacturers and the cable companies can attest to the teething pains ) would have to be redone the next year for the new cable-card 2 model. Not much window at all to sell the cable-card 1 TiVo's before people would start waiting to buy the cable-card 2 models instead!

TiVo isn't a big enough company to afford the cost of extra models that are guaranteed never to pay for themselves.



aahhh

makes sense (what all three of you said)
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:29 AM   #67 (Print)
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I have to believe there is no chance that TivoToGo gets implemented on the comcast DVRs. I'm sure the studios weren't happy about it when you were only talking about Tivo's subscriber base, but when all of a sudden you open this up to Comcast's 20 mm+ subs it becomes a much bigger deal.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:42 AM   #68 (Print)
dropd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott
I have to believe there is no chance that TivoToGo gets implemented on the comcast DVRs. I'm sure the studios weren't happy about it when you were only talking about Tivo's subscriber base, but when all of a sudden you open this up to Comcast's 20 mm+ subs it becomes a much bigger deal.


While I don't think it's a no-brainer that T2G WOULD come through on Comcast, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand just yet.

One thing to think about is this: The Sony PSP is about to be released in the US. Likely, these things are going to sell like hotcakes. Will comcast be interested in providing content to devices like these? Perhaps...
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:50 AM   #69 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott
I have to believe there is no chance that TivoToGo gets implemented on the comcast DVRs. I'm sure the studios weren't happy about it when you were only talking about Tivo's subscriber base, but when all of a sudden you open this up to Comcast's 20 mm+ subs it becomes a much bigger deal.


yet another area of my doubts this deal can be good to Stand Alone users not on comcast cable - and maybe even to Comcast customers who want the whole range of TiVo services, like some D* users do now.
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Old 03-15-2005, 11:50 AM   #70 (Print)
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Praise the Lord! I have 2 Tivos, Comcast, and a Comcast HDTV DVR (which is great, but not Tivo.) I was STRONGLY feeling that the Comcast DVR was good enough (and HDTV compatible) that I would never again be able to buy another Tivo.

This news is the best! Praise Tivo!

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Old 03-15-2005, 11:56 AM   #71 (Print)
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Interesting filing from Comcast to the FCC - Re: Integration Ban - March 14, 2005
Quote:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/...ment=6517495764
In addition to these compromises, Comcast has also worked to reach an agreement on several key issues with one company that previously was among the strongest proponents of the integration ban.
So ... any speculation who that "one company is" ...

Last edited by dt_dc : 03-15-2005 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:01 PM   #72 (Print)
Georgia Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcorsi
Praise the Lord! I have 2 Tivos, Comcast, and a Comcast HDTV DVR (which is great, but not Tivo.) I was STRONGLY feeling that the Comcast DVR was good enough (and HDTV compatible) that I would never again be able to buy another Tivo.
This news is the best! Praise Tivo!


Like you, I have multiple Lifetime Tivos. My only concern is that now I'll have to pay an additional fee to my already high Comcast bill to re-subscribe to the Tivo service on the Comcast box. I'll do it, because the Tivo interface is just too good, but I won't like paying even more for something I already paid for.

Still, I can't wait for my 6412 (or its successor) to use the Tivo interface. Joy!

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Old 03-15-2005, 12:05 PM   #73 (Print)
dmlove51
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Quote:
I just I hope this means that the Comcast unit will be reprogrammed to include a jump-back when hitting "play" after fast forward...


Who cares about Wish Lists (just kidding )? I'd be happy with jump-back and skip-to-tick!

Quote:
Praise the Lord! I have 2 Tivos, Comcast, and a Comcast HDTV DVR (which is great, but not Tivo.) I was STRONGLY feeling that the Comcast DVR was good enough (and HDTV compatible) that I would never again be able to buy another Tivo.


I'm in the same boat, with 3 TiVos and a Comcast HDTV DVR - if this new baby is HD, I'll trade in my SA TiVos in a heartbeat!! (Even if I have no one to sell them to since the SA will be a dead animal)
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:23 PM   #74 (Print)
finaldiet
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Tivo stock

I think Tivo will be in good shape. Their stock as of now has jumped 50%. Chicago Sun-Times says they will cut some advertising and rebates. Comcast a very GOOD deal for Tivo.
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:24 PM   #75 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dt_dc
Interesting filing from Comcast to the FCC - Re: Integration Ban - March 14, 2005
So ... any speculation who that "one company is" ...


always cool how you dig into the offical stuff and pull out these nuggets for us DT_DC

except that now it is another link in the chain leading to the conclusion that TiVo sold their soul in order to live

after all there are now millions less people who would be in nay way interested in buying a stand alone Cable Card TiVo at any price
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Old 03-15-2005, 12:34 PM   #76 (Print)
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I wonder how Tivo's other "partners" - Humax, Pioneer, etc feel about this? The reality is that Tivo will be cannibalizing sales of their SA Tivos dramatically. Can't imagine that anyone who is a comcast subscriber is planning on buying a Tivo ever again (unless of course you need one in the next year or so).

Obviously Tivo needs to look out for itself and this deal makes a great deal of strategic sense for Tivo but I agree w/ ZeoTivo that the impact to SA Tivo users who aren't lucky enough (can't believe I'm saying this) to be Comcast subscribers may not be positive.

Should be interesting.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:05 PM   #77 (Print)
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I've never been so happy to have Comcast!

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:07 PM   #78 (Print)
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From the SEC filing

On March 15, 2005, we entered into a non-exclusive licensing and marketing agreement with Comcast STB Software DVR, LLC, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Comcast Corporation, and Comcast Corporation, as guarantor of Comcast STB’s obligations under the agreement. Pursuant to our agreement, we have agreed to develop a TiVo-branded software solution for deployment on Comcast’s DVR platforms, which would enable any TiVo-specific DVR and networking features requested by Comcast, such as WishList ™ searches, Season Pass ™ recordings, home media features, and TiVoToGo ™ transfers. In addition, we have agreed to develop an advertising management system for deployment on Comcast platforms to enable the provision of local and national advertising to Comcast subscribers.

Under the agreement, Comcast will pay us an upfront fee and a recurring monthly fee per Comcast subscriber who receives the TiVo service through Comcast. Comcast will also pay us fees for engineering services for the development and integration of the TiVo service software solution (subject to adjustment under certain circumstances) and the advertising management system.


The initial term of our agreement is for seven years from completion of the TiVo service software solution, with Comcast permitted to renew for additional 1-year terms for up to a total of 8 additional years as long as certain deployment thresholds have been achieved. During the term of the agreement, we will provide Comcast with certain customer and maintenance support. We will have the continuing right to sell certain types of advertising in connection with the TiVo service offered through Comcast. We will also have a limited right to sell certain types of advertising on other Comcast DVR set-top boxes enabled with the advertising management system, subject to Comcast’s option to terminate such right in exchange for certain advertising-related payments. Development and deployment of the TiVo service software solution and advertising management system is targeted to occur within two years from the date of the agreement, with certain consequences, including, but not limited to, termination of the agreement, in the event development of the TiVo service software solution has not been completed by such date. As part of our agreement, Comcast is receiving a non-exclusive, non-transferable license to our intellectual property in order to deploy the TiVo service software solution and advertising management system, including certain trademark branding rights and a covenant not to assert under our patents, which rights extend only to Comcast Corporation, its affiliates, and certain of its vendors and suppliers with respect to Comcast products and services. Such non-exclusive, non-transferable license to our intellectual property will, under certain circumstances, continue after the termination of our agreement. In addition, Comcast is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors who license certain TiVo technology. Pursuant to the terms of our agreement, Comcast has the right to terminate the agreement in the event we are the subject of certain change of control transactions involving any of certain specified companies.



The foregoing description of our licensing and marketing agreement with Comcast Corporation and Comcast STB Software DVR, LLC is qualified in its entirety by reference to the provisions of the agreement that will be filed as an exhibit with the Company’s Form 10-K for the year ending January 31, 2005.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:09 PM   #79 (Print)
marrone
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Ok, now if they do the same for brighthouse, I might actually CONSIDER dropping DirecTV. (I suppose if they deal with Time Warner, it would filter down to Brighthouse)

(emphasis on CONSIDER)

But as pointed out, it doesn't appear they'll be using Series 2's to do this...they'll be using exisiting boxes, and putting new software on them. Forget about any other hacking, but would this impact upgrading hard drives? (I'm kinda spoiled by my 160GB DSR6000).

-Mike

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:14 PM   #80 (Print)
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you bolded the wrong part from my perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivoli
Pursuant to our agreement, we have agreed to develop a TiVo-branded software solution for deployment on Comcast’s DVR platforms, which would enable any TiVo-specific DVR and networking features requested by Comcast, such as WishList ™ searches, Season Pass ™ recordings, home media features, and TiVoToGo ™ transfers.

In addition, Comcast is entitled to most favored customer terms as compared with other multi-channel video distributors who license certain TiVo technology.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:16 PM   #81 (Print)
Tivoli
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No I did not. I pointed that part out since it says Comcast will pay for the development costs and pay per sub (earlier in the thread people were wondering who would pay for it).
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:18 PM   #82 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tivoli
No I did not. I pointed that part out since it says Comcast will pay for the development costs and pay per sub (earlier in the thread people were wondering who would pay for it).


I said from my perspective
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:19 PM   #83 (Print)
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Is it really going to take a year and a half to develop the code for comcast? Seems a bit long

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:25 PM   #84 (Print)
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I would be shocked if this platform isn't a generic HD TiVo box with cable card from Comcast.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:27 PM   #85 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dt_dc
Interesting filing from Comcast to the FCC - Re: Integration Ban - March 14, 2005
So ... any speculation who that "one company is" ...


Ouch! I hope this deal doesn't stop TiVo from fighting for the December Multi-Stream CableCARD deadline. If it does then the chances of us seeing a CableCARD TiVo by next year is going to be slim to none. And those of us not in Comcast territory are going to be left out in the cold once again.

Dan

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:29 PM   #86 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricScott
I wonder how Tivo's other "partners" - Humax, Pioneer, etc feel about this? The reality is that Tivo will be cannibalizing sales of their SA Tivos dramatically. Can't imagine that anyone who is a comcast subscriber is planning on buying a Tivo ever again (unless of course you need one in the next year or so).


I agree there will be a certain amount of canabilization, but those partners still offer some value that Tivo/Comcast probably won't. Humax, Pioneer, Toshiba produce Tivo boxes which allow you to burn direct to DVD. Folks who want that ability would still be served. The question is will MRV exist on the Comcast boxes and will it work with the Humax/Pioneer burnering boxes. If so, it's not such a bad proposition.

Humax is also getting clever and will be releasing that LCD TV with builtin Tivo and DVD. That'd a nice unit for a den with analog cable. If they can price it competitively, I'd be in. I don't like my den tv anyway.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:32 PM   #87 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
maybe you get lucky and comcast buys out your adelphia system


Please, please, please let this happen here too!!!

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:33 PM   #88 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
after all there are now millions less people who would be in nay way interested in buying a stand alone Cable Card TiVo at any price

But if the price Tivo could have offered them at was ridiculously high (which I suspect it was - imagine what the HD DirecTivo would cost without whatever subsidy DirecTV includes) then the box would have been a hard sell anyway.

I am disappointed that the Comcast box isn't cablecard based. That would have worked in all Comcast markets, and with a big MSO buying them straight off they would have had the economies of scale to get the price down at retail for models for non-Comcast customers. And I would have been able to get one, unlike the moto-based box they're going with. But if the choice was between trying to go it alone with cablecard boxes or losing something (resources, flexibility, whatever) with their own CableCard to get a deal with Comcast, I think they made the right choice. IMO without a cable deal CableCard was absolutely necessary as it was Tivos only shot at competing with cable DVRs, but I had doubts that it was that good a shot, given the wait and likely cost. Now they don't have to compete with cable DVRs, sinc e they are cable DVRs. That's a much better outcome.
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:34 PM   #89 (Print)
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FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I couldn't be happier to hear this. I've been hoping for this ever since I switched over to the Comcast DVR but never thought it was going to happen. This is going to save TiVo and make comcast customers like me VERY happy that we didn't go to satellite. Now we can stop all the Tivo is dying threads!!!!!!
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Old 03-15-2005, 01:37 PM   #90 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan203
Ouch! I hope this deal doesn't stop TiVo from fighting for the December Multi-Stream CableCARD deadline. If it does then the chances of us seeing a CableCARD TiVo by next year is going to be slim to none. And those of us not in Comcast territory are going to be left out in the cold once again.

Dan


now you are seeing the cloudy skies I have been looking at.
I fully understand that TiVo did what they had to do to stay viable as a company and I am indeed glad they will be around in 2007 when hopefully the cable Card 2 spec is ratified. But no two tuners in one box for me for a while. Guess I will go play with HME for a year.
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