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Old 04-07-2005, 02:35 PM   #31 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Sure, you could do that, IF you DENY the clear premise statement, and I quote AGAIN: "a TiVo digital video recorder would have their old commercials replaced with new ones."


so why would they change out ads that just get FFed over anyway
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:38 PM   #32 (Print)
dt_dc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dt_dc
This can be interpreted many different ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Sure, you could do that, IF you DENY the clear premise statement, and I quote AGAIN: "a TiVo digital video recorder would have their old commercials replaced with new ones."
commercial - n. - A paid advertisement

advertisement - n. - A notice, such as a poster or a paid announcement in the print, broadcast, or electronic media, designed to attract public attention or patronage.

Billboards and additional info are 'commercials' too. Just because some people differentiate between 'commercial', 'billboard', 'pop-up', 'showcase', 'yellow star', etc. doesn't mean that everyone does.
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:38 PM   #33 (Print)
CrispyCritter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Sure, you could do that, IF you DENY the clear premise statement, and I quote AGAIN: "a TiVo digital video recorder would have their old commercials replaced with new ones."
That's a very fine statement that is completely satisfied by having the old commercials replaced with new ones every time the show is played.

Ie, there's no need for the disk copy of the program to change; it just has a tag that says "play a video clip instead of this commercial, if one exists". It's the video clips that change, not the recording.

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Old 04-07-2005, 02:45 PM   #34 (Print)
barky81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
...you said in the first post of your FUD trail that they would not be authorized to put a new commercial at the begining or end or change the length of teh recording. an idiot would not realize I was referring to that in the statement about adding new commercials.

Your FUD is coming up very short


Recognizing your inability to locate my original post (<--even with a link), I quote the relevant text here:

"Also, I never *told* Tivo I did not intend to record the commercials, and definitely HAVE NOT authorized them to EDIT my recordings to modify them in anyway--INCLUDING changing ads!"

The clear evidence of your posts indicate that you did not comprehend my first post, the posted (and quoted) supporting news article, nor any of the subsequent posts trying to clarify FOR YOU its meaning.

But to keep us somewhat more closely to the ACTUAL topic, what YOU said was: "I do not shout often but you do not seem to get it. The recording itself does not change in any way. nothing added, nothing taken away, nothing overwriten..."


And THAT is still wrong.
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:45 PM   #35 (Print)
parzec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
That's a very fine statement that is completely satisfied by having the old commercials replaced with new ones every time the show is played.

Ie, there's no need for the disk copy of the program to change; it just has a tag that says "play a video clip instead of this commercial, if one exists". It's the video clips that change, not the recording.


Yes, simply use the flags to insert a video clip instead of the popup banner. Without any way to overide this function by the user, this could create an issue. If he really did intend to record a commercial to archive or save for a later date,since the flags are in there, there may be no way to view that segment again -- even though it is still physically stored on the drive. Granted, I can't really see wanting to record commercials, but someone out there might and this "advertising feature" would limit the usefulness of Tivo to that user substantially.
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:56 PM   #36 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
If I record 1 hour of a TV channel, nothing authorizes Tivo to change the content of that hour. And if I later play it back without fast forwarding, nothing authorizes Tivo to extend the viewing time, delete any of the original content, or add any additional content. Period. (And nothing authorizes Tivo to force me to watch a commercial to access that 1 hour recording, either.

Given that, there will have to be a change in terms.


Ok there is the actual post with bold on it to point out the part you talked about extending time of recording or adding new content. sorry If I mistated it

anyway you obviously are just going to hammer your point as fact and the only way to read the generalized quote from a Cable Company executive in a 3 paragraph press story. So have fun with that. I think it painfully clear to the discerning reader that that bit of FUD is counterbalanced out now .........
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:58 PM   #37 (Print)
barky81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
so why would they change out ads that just get FFed over anyway


Wow, you really are kinda behind the class a little, aren't you?

The original advertiser paid for the original ad. Substituting a NEW ad on the recording offers an opportunity to actually SELL a new ad. And yes, such ads, properly designed, can be measured for perception and profitably priced.

Especially given that Tivo ALREADY tracks which commercials are ACTUALLY watched and (worse) replayed. (Now, wait, a second, before you get all excited...they do.)

QUOTE: "TiVo’s audience measurement analysis is based on aggregated data from a sample of 10,000 anonymous TiVo households. TiVo viewership information gauges the interest in programming content by measuring the percentage of the TiVo Super Bowl audience watching in “play” speed. "

Now, think for a minute. How much is an ad worth if the advertiser can actually KNOW (1) that the ad was actually played at speed (2) also know if/when it was replayed at speed and (3) know the anonymous demographic of the audience that watched/replayed it was ITS (the advertiser's) target audience?
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Old 04-07-2005, 02:59 PM   #38 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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oh please tell me more
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:01 PM   #39 (Print)
barky81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dt_dc
commercial - n. - A paid advertisement

advertisement - n. - A notice, such as a poster or a paid announcement in the print, broadcast, or electronic media, designed to attract public attention or patronage.

Billboards and additional info are 'commercials' too. Just because some people differentiate between 'commercial', 'billboard', 'pop-up', 'showcase', 'yellow star', etc. doesn't mean that everyone does.


That wet paper bag you are trying to argue your way out of is as follows:

The clear statement was "old commercials replaced with new ones"
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:04 PM   #40 (Print)
barky81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
That's a very fine statement that is completely satisfied by having the old commercials replaced with new ones every time the show is played.

Ie, there's no need for the disk copy of the program to change; it just has a tag that says "play a video clip instead of this commercial, if one exists". It's the video clips that change, not the recording.


Really, slow down. They are not allowed to PREVENT me from watching a commercial I intentionally recorded.

If I record the Superbowl, complete with ads, and want to watch it 6 months later; they do NOT have the right to substitute anything during the time I want to watch the Superbowl commercials...
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:05 PM   #41 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parzec
Yes, simply use the flags to insert a video clip instead of the popup banner. Without any way to overide this function by the user, this could create an issue. If he really did intend to record a commercial to archive or save for a later date,since the flags are in there, there may be no way to view that segment again -- even though it is still physically stored on the drive. Granted, I can't really see wanting to record commercials, but someone out there might and this "advertising feature" would limit the usefulness of Tivo to that user substantially.


tags to pull a new video clip from elsewhere on the drive would work as well, but it just seems to have more value to the advertiser to have something like a billboard as the ads are largely FFed now. why work in the 30 sec ad spot when you can go billboard and interactive.

probably there will be a mixture of stuff though until they figure out what works.
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:09 PM   #42 (Print)
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great logic...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
so why would they change out ads that just get FFed over anyway


Zeo - THAT makes great sense... lol
besides I thought the Comcast deal was just for Comcast type Tivos..
And I would imagine that the original advertisers might have something to say too - but I could be wrong....

hawk
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:09 PM   #43 (Print)
barky81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
Ok there is the actual post with bold on it to point out the part you talked about extending time of recording or adding new content. sorry If I mistated it

anyway you obviously are just going to hammer your point as fact and the only way to read the generalized quote from a Cable Company executive in a 3 paragraph press story. So have fun with that. I think it painfully clear to the discerning reader that that bit of FUD is counterbalanced out now .........


Now see, even with the LINK, you couldn't find my FIRST post (which is after all what you said and what I responded to). So now you substitute a subsequent post whose only purpose was a kindhearted attempt to help you UNDERSTAND THE OBVIOUS...and you still don't get it.

The only point to hammer home is that you are flopping around on the dock like a fish in need of a real hammer...you don't want to stand by any (much less all) of your original claims, so be it.
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:11 PM   #44 (Print)
CrispyCritter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Really, slow down. They are not allowed to PREVENT me from watching a commercial I intentionally recorded.

If I record the Superbowl, complete with ads, and want to watch it 6 months later; they do NOT have the right to substitute anything during the time I want to watch the Superbowl commercials...
They absolutely can, if that is what the advertiser has paid for. They aren't changing the original content at all. Are you really claiming you have a legal copyright to the original broadcast?

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Old 04-07-2005, 03:13 PM   #45 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Now see, even with the LINK, you couldn't find my FIRST post (which is after all what you said and what I responded to). So now you substitute a subsequent post whose only purpose was a kindhearted attempt to help you UNDERSTAND THE OBVIOUS...and you still don't get it.

The only point to hammer home is that you are flopping around on the dock like a fish in need of a real hammer...you don't want to stand by any (much less all) of your original claims, so be it.


you really are way too literal.
I am happy to let others judge the round of posts, I am now completely unconcerned if I convinced you of anything or even what you think about it, but I will keep knocking the FUD down
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:13 PM   #46 (Print)
dgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
tags to pull a new video clip from elsewhere on the drive would work as well, but it just seems to have more value to the advertiser to have something like a billboard as the ads are largely FFed now. why work in the 30 sec ad spot when you can go billboard and interactive.


It seems like the ideal would be both - a billboard that alerts you to an underlying ad that has been targeted at your interests.
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:13 PM   #47 (Print)
Wingman15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
an idiot would fall back on the lame "he does not agree with us so he must be wrong argument that many others see as silly and ignorant"

fortunately I am not an idiot so read my reply to him and see if you can argue any of the actual content instead of just pulling out the "he's a zealot and therefor wrong lame reply"

PS - if you say advertise at first - how do you fall back onto one paragraph in a FAQ buried on the web site as proof of your claim. still waiting on your answer to that. I would think advertising would be a bit more intrusive.



Hahaha. You kill me. It does not matter what I say, you will find a way to disagree. You will probably disagree with that very statement.

First, lets see how "buried" the FAQ is on the Tivo site.

Step 1 - Goto www.tivo.com
Step 2 - Click on What is Tivo?
Step 3 - Click on FAQs

Wow, I don't know how anyone finds that. It is amazing that I found it at all. Buried so far down into their site. They must not want people to find it. Its a shame that they don't put all their info on a SINGLE page to make it easier for people to find.

OK, proved you wrong AGAIN. Now on to the next item.

Let me dumb this down for you. I will put this into something you should be familiar with. How about a Dick, Jane, and Spot story.

Dick - Consumer looking at buying a Tivo but has questions about it
Jane - Tivo themselves
Spot - Clueless wonder a.k.a. ZeoTivo

Dick - "Hello Jane, I am looking into DVR's but am not sure what they can do. Will you be able to help me"?

Jane - "Why certainly Dick, what questions do you have"?

Dick - "Does TiVo allow me to fast forward through commercials"?

Jane - "The TiVo remote control has three-speeds of fast forward and rewind that enable you to easily skim through any part of a recorded program at 3,18, or 60x normal speeds, including commercials. You can speed through 1 hour of programming in about 1 minute. Often, TiVo subscribers sit down to watch a 60-minute "live" program 20 minutes past the start time so they can skip past the commercials and catch up to "real" time by the program's end. You can also jump ahead or back in 15-minute increments, making getting through halftime a little easier".

Dick - "Great, so I can skip commercials with the Tivo".

Spot - "I don't get it".

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Old 04-07-2005, 03:20 PM   #48 (Print)
CrispyCritter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
The only point to hammer home is that you are flopping around on the dock like a fish in need of a real hammer...you don't want to stand by any (much less all) of your original claims, so be it.
But I assume you'll admit that you're not standing by your original claims?

What brought me into this was your nonsensical statement that they are changing the ad on the disk recording. You seem to have accepted that there's no need for that...

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Old 04-07-2005, 03:23 PM   #49 (Print)
Wingman15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
The only point to hammer home is that you are flopping around on the dock like a fish in need of a real hammer...you don't want to stand by any (much less all) of your original claims, so be it.


There is more flipflopping in these forums then at the Democratic National Convention.

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Old 04-07-2005, 03:28 PM   #50 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingman15
Hahaha. You kill me. It does not matter what I say, you will find a way to disagree. You will probably disagree with that very statement. .


I disagree



PS still waiting for the advertising of this. Obviously everyone knows the TiVo can FF any part of the content. Obviously people very much like to FF the ads, myself included. Obviously people buy DVRs for that reason, not just TiVo but all DVRs. But you were talking about how TiVo advertised this as a selling point and that the Billboard ads diminished this selling point.
But in reality, due to the fact that ReplayTV got beat up over commercial advance, TiVo does not make this a selling point, does not have it in their advertising and you could not find it in any TiVo advertising or any of the scrupulous retail partners. You found one by some directTV installer who was blasted on epinions as anything but scrupulous.

do billboards diminsh the FF of commercials on a TiVo - that is a subjective answer.

do billboards diminish a feature that TiVo distinctly advertised as the got to have feature, no. They had a very good reason for not advertising the FF or skip of commercials. They did not want to be sued AND They intended to eventually make money off advertising just like the rest of the industry they are in and stop being the pariah of advertisers that Cable companies had to kick around in order to look good for their revenue sources. So that part of your argument did not stand up
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Old 04-07-2005, 03:57 PM   #51 (Print)
Wingman15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
I disagree



You found one by some directTV installer who was blasted on epinions as anything but scrupulous.


In another thread, you accused me of using blogs and forums as "facts". I would gather that you would post only factual information. So, what exactly is epinions? Lets see.

http://www.epinions.com/about/

Unbiased Advice. Epinions does not decide what content to post and what not to post. Epinions is a platform for people to share their experiences - both good and bad. With millions of consumer reviews, ratings and comments, Epinions' robust content engine presents you with high quality content based on how helpful other users have found it.

Well, that sounds like a blog/forum to me. So if I bought something from company A and was upset becasue the item was scratched. I could post a scathing review of them on epinions becasue I was mad at them, even if my complaint was warranted or not. And you take this as factual information.

You think because someone was upset with their dealings with that company, that the companies advertising automatcially must be wrong. Wow, we don't even have say "your an idiot" (as stated by someone else earlier) because you are proving that fact all on your own.

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Old 04-07-2005, 04:36 PM   #52 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
They absolutely can, if that is what the advertiser has paid for. They aren't changing the original content at all. Are you really claiming you have a legal copyright to the original broadcast?


Well, gosh, given that nowhere in any of my posts do I use the words "legal copyright", I'm gonna go with, "No." (in fact, given that I don't use either word separately either, maybe I should go with, "Heck, no.")

But it comes as NO surprise to me that that is apparently what you READ.
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Old 04-07-2005, 04:44 PM   #53 (Print)
barky81
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Originally Posted by CrispyCritter
But I assume you'll admit that you're not standing by your original claims?

What brought me into this was your nonsensical statement that they are changing the ad on the disk recording. You seem to have accepted that there's no need for that...



Given that you still don't know what you are talking about, or what I have said, I am actually going to go with , "No" again.

Because I am standing by my original claims. Now if only you knew what they were, we might be able to discuss them!

But as to part two of your statments, the only thing I have accepted is that YOU don't know anything about what would be needed to accomplish ANY of the things Tivo/Comcast or others have announced.
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Old 04-07-2005, 04:55 PM   #54 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barky81
Given that you still don't know what you are talking about, or what I have said, I am actually going to go with , "No" again.

Because I am standing by my original claims. Now if only you knew what they were, we might be able to discuss them!

But as to part two of your statments, the only thing I have accepted is that YOU don't know anything about what would be needed to accomplish ANY of the things Tivo/Comcast or others have announced.
Can you please restate your position, succinctly? Because I think a few people are having trouble understanding it. When more than one person doesn't understand what you're trying to say, it's a possibility that it's how you are saying it that is at fault. Just continuing to tell people, "You just don't understand what I was saying there" certainly doesn't help them to understand it.
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Old 04-07-2005, 05:00 PM   #55 (Print)
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Originally Posted by gonzotek
Can you please restate your position, succinctly?


And, let me add, that when restating it, and whoever replies to it, please keep in mind the rules of courtesy we expect on this forum must be observed. That means no calling anybody an idiot if they disagree, or otherwise insulting them, directly or indirectly.

I will leave this thread open for now, but if it does not stay civil, I will close it.

Please read the forum rules and guidelines at the top of the happy hour for clarification of what we expect here. Thanks.

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Old 04-07-2005, 05:34 PM   #56 (Print)
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Originally Posted by hawk4hire
... besides I thought the Comcast deal was just for Comcast type Tivos..
And I would imagine that the original advertisers might have something to say too - but I could be wrong....
Ding ding ding! Thanks for pointing this out. I'm pretty sure this would only apply to the new Comcast/TiVo hardware. Barky, do you have one of those? Before you answer, make sure you read that article again, which says that they expect to release them in 2006.

And Barky, like Hawk says, I think the original advertisers have more of a case against TiVo/Comcast than you do. After all, they paid for that specific timeslot in that show. Now, I could understand if the commercial being overlaid was for a local, time-sensitive event, like a Home Show. Once that event's date passes, the commercial isn't too relevant. Comcast could insert another local-interest commercial in its place.

As Gonzotek requested, could you please summarize your position on all of this? The personal attacks, quoting/requoting, and fish-flopping imagery is getting in the way of your message. What is the course of action you will take if everything you fear becomes fact?
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Old 04-07-2005, 05:52 PM   #57 (Print)
dgh
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Originally Posted by TiMo Tim
And Barky, like Hawk says, I think the original advertisers have more of a case against TiVo/Comcast than you do. After all, they paid for that specific timeslot in that show.


I've always wondered how that works. My local cable company already occasionally replaces network/superstation commercials with their own with no special hardware in the home. (It's done globally at the head end.) They've been doing that for 20 years. What I've never been sure of is how the money flows (if at all) when they do this. Do they negotiate with the station? The advertiser?
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Old 04-07-2005, 06:11 PM   #58 (Print)
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It's similar to the way your local affiliate gets to sell local commericals during network broadcasts of the big four networks. The network can sell national spots. Your local affiliate can also sell you a national spot or sell you a local spot. Even during a Superbowl there is time alloted for local station promos and local commercials (not many of them but they are there)

Your local cable company gets to sell local commercials for networks and programs on its local service, whether those slots are on FoodTV, WGN, TBS, A&E, ESPN, etc. Other cable companies in other markets insert other local commercials for their local markets. They also insert their own promos for their particular cable company and its various services.
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Old 04-07-2005, 06:15 PM   #59 (Print)
dgh
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How does the advertiser for a network show know how many people saw his ad. (As opposed to saw the show with someone else's ad replacing his?) I'm talking not about times that have been set aside for local spots, but times that have simply been overwritten by a downstream operation. Is it a guess or does he know?

Last edited by dgh : 04-07-2005 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 04-07-2005, 06:21 PM   #60 (Print)
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Originally Posted by dgh
How does the advertiser for a network show know how many people saw his add. (As opposed to saw the show with someone else's ad replacing his?) I'm talking not about times that have been set aside for local spots, but times that have simply been overwritten by a downstream operation. Is it a guess or does he know?


Well I'll admit it was a long time ago but I used to be involved with radio and there the station had to log and report every commercial it ran and when it ran it. Have no idea whether that's still the case but expect that it is in one form or another.
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