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Old 04-19-2005, 10:37 AM   #151 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
If this does come to fruition, the only part Netflix would probably play in this would be as a recognizeable brand. Hey get your Netflix on Tivo!


yes, the remote HME straight to a TiVo box via broadband would diferentiate this from all other download movies via broadband as so much easier to use to watch a movie on the TV. They can always keep an eye on the buffer it and have some smarts to show when the movie can start to be watched, even if it is not completely down yet, though I hope for a queue where I can have movies listed and the next one just downloads silently in the background and shows up when it is ready to be watched.

what they really need Netflix for though is their cadre of people who already work with many sources to get the rights to rent DVDs and in some cases have a data bureau make their own DVDs on the fly to satisfy demand. These same people would find it easy enough to add in getting licenses to electronic downloads and prepping movie files for download to a TiVo.

the depth of Netflix offerings would put TiVo right ahead of even the best VOD offerings out there.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:18 PM   #152 (Print)
MerlinMacuser
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Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids....

Forget NetFlix...sign up for Blockbuster's Unlimited in store rental program for a month or two then time-shift to your heart's content.

Forget T2G...just use iMovie and Toast and make your own library of favorites.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:29 PM   #153 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinMacuser
Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids....

Forget NetFlix...sign up for Blockbuster's Unlimited in store rental program for a month or two then time-shift to your heart's content.

Forget T2G...just use iMovie and Toast and make your own library of favorites.

That's ok if they have the (uncensored/unrated) movie or other video program I'm looking for in-store at the time I'm looking for it. Blockbuster generally doesn't show NC-17 or unrated, does not stock great numbers of letter-boxed titles, and the individual stores quite simply can't have the depth of material available on Netflix. I may have to wait for Netflix, but I can ask it for the Criterion Edition of Terry Gilliam's Brazil, and forget about it until it shows up in the mail. At best, I might be able to get Blockbuster to stock it for me, but I'll still have to make another trip over there before I can watch it.

That's not to knock the instant gratification factor of Blockbuster(et al). Watching a video the same day you decide you want to is still a valuable asset to having brick and mortar stores.
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:34 PM   #154 (Print)
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Not to mention the easy searching and queueing of the netflix page. and the profiles where I have a queue for my wife, a queue for my kids and a queue for me and movies come from each as they are watched and mailed back
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Old 04-19-2005, 01:40 PM   #155 (Print)
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Clothing is optional when renting Netflix, whereas Blockbuster prefers britches. Oh yeah and parking, followed by waiting in line, only to be mocked by some surly teenager when renting Navy Seals.
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:40 PM   #156 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
Clothing is optional when renting Netflix, whereas Blockbuster prefers britches. Oh yeah and parking, followed by waiting in line, only to be mocked by some surly teenager when renting Navy Seals.


Ha ha.

Blockbuster sucks. My girlfriend and I bravely ventured into a store this weekend. We were only able to find 3 movies we were interested in, only to be disappointed when each selection had no more copies in stock. We walked out empty handed.

The Blockbuster model is dying, and fast.

We've been using movielink.com to download movies, watching them on a TV hooked up to a TV-Out card on my PC. I know I'm in a minority with the TV-Out solution, but movielink.com is pretty slick. I'd love to be able to view that content on my TiVo. That would rock.

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Old 04-19-2005, 02:55 PM   #157 (Print)
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You all found a way to forget you are pissed about no TTG for Mac

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Old 04-19-2005, 02:59 PM   #158 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
You all found a way to forget you are pissed about no TTG for Mac



LOL.


Oh yeah.


No TTG for Mac! THIS SUCKS!


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Old 04-19-2005, 03:07 PM   #159 (Print)
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Netflix via Tivo would suck though, wouldn't itsince they'd push down full frame with stereo sound. 2.35:1 Lord of the Rings chopped to 1.33:1. Blech.
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:16 PM   #160 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unix_Beard
Netflix via Tivo would suck though, wouldn't itsince they'd push down full frame with stereo sound. 2.35:1 Lord of the Rings chopped to 1.33:1. Blech.


My best scenario is Netflix lets you decide how you get a movie, Miss Congeniality 2 via TiVo and LOTR via DVD. I am sure that would take too much work on their part and it would be seperate accounts


Of course I have component out and digital sound out on my SD H400 TiVo so I could get other formats. It would not have to be a straight TiVo format - just be playable by the TiVo.

it would help sell the HD TiVo with component and digital sound though
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Old 04-19-2005, 04:06 PM   #161 (Print)
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Still no real response from TiVo, huh? Wow, I am so placated by "his comments were misrepresented." Thanks for proving we "Mac zealots" right, CFO... and shame on you TiVoPony for just hauling the insulting corporate line! Why can't you just tell us what you're doing? You're the PM, so you definitely know what your engineers are actually doing... is it just that you CAN'T show us what's going on because nothing is being done?

It seems increasingly obvious that this is true. Prove us wrong, or don't be surprised when your Mac subscribers start leaving for less deceptive waters. I mean, how hard is it to throw us this bone?

It should be noted that the only reason that is obvious for why TiVo went with the DirectShow DRM scheme is because they signed a partnership with MS, ostensibly so that T2G would work on a myriad of MS-supported portable products. The meat of that partnership has never been enumerated, however.

It's either a happy coincidence that that means it's incompatible with the only real competitor in the home computer market, or a deliberate plan, depending on your level of trust/naiveté. Zeo thinks I'm an idiot for thinking MS might have ulterior motives, so you can make your own decision.

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Old 04-19-2005, 07:23 PM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinMacuser
Silly Rabbit, Trix are for kids....

Forget NetFlix...sign up for Blockbuster's Unlimited in store rental program for a month or two then time-shift to your heart's content.

Forget T2G...just use iMovie and Toast and make your own library of favorites.


I firmly believe that you have the fair use rights to make a copy (for personal use) of a movie you have bought. I don't not believe those extend to copying a movie you have only rented though. This kind of attitude is the exact reason we end up with all this DRM crap that only runs on one platform. You think because you are *able* to copy something that you are allowed to. That just isn't true. The rental payment covers use for the period of time covered in the rental agreement. Since you don't own it, you can't exercise fair use.

I suppose once they break the DRM on the Napster service that you will download all the music you can for a month for $20, keep it after your subscription expires, and feel like you've done nothing wrong.
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:39 PM   #163 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkscout
I suppose once they break the DRM on the Napster service that you will download all the music you can for a month for $20, keep it after your subscription expires, and feel like you've done nothing wrong.

IIRC Napster's DRM was broken within a very short time. As was TiVo's (as long as you are using Windows), as was Apple's, ...

How many cars have governers that regulate how fast you can go? Does the lack of them mean we will all speed (well, given my last drive around Chicago...)? Parents do this sort of thing (DRM-like behavior managment) but when will the "industry" get a clue?

<sigh>

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Old 04-19-2005, 07:53 PM   #164 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lon
IIRC Napster's DRM was broken within a very short time. As was TiVo's (as long as you are using Windows), as was Apple's, ...

How many cars have governers that regulate how fast you can go? Does the lack of them mean we will all speed (well, given my last drive around Chicago...)? Parents do this sort of thing (DRM-like behavior managment) but when will the "industry" get a clue?

<sigh>

You know they're using GPS-enabled rental cars so that when you speed they know about it and can even add it to your bill, and if you're actually caught speeding, the police can subpoena the rental company and use the data against you? On the other hand if you weren't speeding, the data would prove you innocent. Scary how it goes though...how long will it be before we're auto-ticketed for speeding and/or limited against it by our car's computer?
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Old 04-19-2005, 07:59 PM   #165 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzotek
You know they're using GPS-enabled rental cars so that when you speed they know about it and can even add it to your bill, and if you're actually caught speeding, the police can subpoena the rental company and use the data against you? On the other hand if you weren't speeding, the data would prove you innocent. Scary how it goes though...how long will it be before we're auto-ticketed for speeding and/or limited against it by our car's computer?


At least in Connecticut, the Supreme Court shut that down:
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/03/305.asp
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Old 04-19-2005, 08:02 PM   #166 (Print)
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Didn't know that. Thanks for the link

Looks like the decision is more to do with economics and business ethics than the gps spying. If the cars are still equipped with them, and they're allowed to and are tracking you, there's still privacy and security concerns.
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:23 PM   #167 (Print)
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Hmmm so Windows MCE is the Autobahn and Tivo is the New Jersey Turnpike?
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:26 PM   #168 (Print)
gonzotek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
Hmmm so Windows MCE is the Autobahn and Tivo is the New Jersey Turnpike?
If so, that makes the vcr a mud rut leading to nowhere in particular.
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:13 PM   #169 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unix_Beard
Netflix via Tivo would suck though, wouldn't itsince they'd push down full frame with stereo sound. 2.35:1 Lord of the Rings chopped to 1.33:1. Blech.


Far more likely the video will be encoded with black bars top and bottom to suit the original aspect ratio, and the sound will be 2-ch surround which TiVo's already record and playback.

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Old 04-20-2005, 12:12 AM   #170 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SavMan
It's either a happy coincidence that that means it's incompatible with the only real competitor in the home computer market, or a deliberate plan, depending on your level of trust/naiveté. Zeo thinks I'm an idiot for thinking MS might have ulterior motives, so you can make your own decision.


well thereyou go again calling people out by name. I was just going to let you have your rant and move on since it is true TiVoPony did indeed not explain what the CFO meant if he was not accurately understood, but anyway
you go and put more words in my posts that were never there. never called you an idiot, never thought you were an idiot - indeed in one of my posts I called you smart but that is just the way you are - you like to pick fights by saying things that were never in a post.

All i have ever said about your MS speculation is that it is probably very heavily biased by your proffessed extreme hatred of anything Microsoft and that TiVo would likely not sign anything excluding them from making a product on the Mac and that TiVo did not have to sign anything to use the publicly available APIs for a directshow filter setup to contain their in house made DRM (see Arthur Von Hoff resume) The only agreement would have been over a WMP plugin to use TiVo DRM to open up and convert a .tivo file to a WMV file for play on windows mobile OS that have WMP 10. That is probably where MS said if TiVo desktop used DirectShow then they could write the plugin for TiVo, which seems reasonable for a company to want to make use of what it already wrote.

speculation on the forum is that quicktime filters are not very DRM oriented and would enable anyone to easily get an mpeg from a tivo file with no real knowledge or having to string a bunch of stuff together. So speculation is that Apple did not have an equivalent to DirectSHow that Tivo felt comfortable using adn thus TiVo needs to write its own custom player for the Mac that contains the tivo file. So show us the easy DRM system that TiVo could have used on the Mac but instead did not use.
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Old 04-20-2005, 12:14 AM   #171 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
So show us the easy DRM system that TiVo could have used on the Mac but instead did not use.



The "Fairplay" system that Apple uses for the iTunes Music Store... is that exclusive technology? If so, who controls it? Apple?

I see here that a company called "Veridisc" may have invented it:
http://www.answers.com/topic/fairplay-1
http://64.244.235.240/explained_contentprovider.asp


Now what if Fairplay was licensed... not so other hardware can play iTMS songs, bus so other vendors can "sell" video content? Perhaps TiVo could use Fairplay to protect TTG-extracted content?
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Old 04-20-2005, 12:18 AM   #172 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fofer
The "Fairplay" system that Apple uses for the iTunes Music Store... is that exclusive technology? If so, who controls it? Apple?


I beleive Apple has not licensed that technology out, and probably would not given their history so far with it. It could of course be what the CFO was referring to as too expensive, but that is speculation and TiVo could not confirm that anyway if they are still negotiating with Apple.
DirectSHow filters that allow the DRM are a public API that anyone can use without license on Windows.

also it does not seem suited for TiVos purposes
from fofers link
"How it works
FairPlay is a fairly simple implementation of common DRM techniques. FairPlay-protected files are regular MP4 container files with an encrypted AAC audio stream. The audio stream is encrypted using the Rijndael algorithm in combination with MD5 hashes. The master key required to decrypt the encrypted audio stream is also stored in encrypted form in the MP4 container file. The key required to decrypt the master key is called the user key."

no idea if you can just drop another DRM scheme into Fairplay
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Old 04-20-2005, 01:10 AM   #173 (Print)
dt_dc
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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
I beleive Apple has not licensed that technology out, and probably would not given their history so far with it.
No, they haven't ... causing much consternation (Microsoft, Real, etc).
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:32 AM   #174 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
speculation on the forum is that quicktime filters are not very DRM oriented and would enable anyone to easily get an mpeg from a tivo file with no real knowledge or having to string a bunch of stuff together. So speculation is that Apple did not have an equivalent to DirectSHow that Tivo felt comfortable using adn thus TiVo needs to write its own custom player for the Mac that contains the tivo file. So show us the easy DRM system that TiVo could have used on the Mac but instead did not use.


Directshow doesn't seem any more secure than Quicktime. Any Windows program that uses it properly ought to be able to open a .tivo and save as to mpeg without any transcoding in the same way it would save an imported mpeg back to mpeg. It just so happens Sonic pops up a message saying you can't do that when a .tivo is involved, but I believe that is just an artificial restriction. And WMP won't save it either.

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Old 04-20-2005, 08:46 AM   #175 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Directshow doesn't seem any more secure than Quicktime. Any Windows program that uses it properly ought to be able to open a .tivo and save as to mpeg without any transcoding in the same way it would save an imported mpeg back to mpeg. It just so happens Sonic pops up a message saying you can't do that when a .tivo is involved, but I believe that is just an artificial restriction. And WMP won't save it either.

This is true. My speculation is that the version of the DS filter shipped with TD2.0 Win was only a preliminary version, released to have something out in time for CES and to reach the largest possible audience (win users) with it. This would be why the leaked beta had at least some form of program access control that 'artificially' restricted unsanctioned programs. I'm guessing that over the next few releases, Mac or Windows, we'll see more artificial restrictions over what we can use to play and work with .tivo files(which will be annoying to say the least).
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:56 AM   #176 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SavMan
It should be noted that the only reason that is obvious for why TiVo went with the DirectShow DRM scheme is because they signed a partnership with MS, ostensibly so that T2G would work on a myriad of MS-supported portable products. The meat of that partnership has never been enumerated, however.

It's either a happy coincidence that that means it's incompatible with the only real competitor in the home computer market, or a deliberate plan, depending on your level of trust/naiveté. Zeo thinks I'm an idiot for thinking MS might have ulterior motives, so you can make your own decision.
Microsoft sells their own drm schemes. If your scenario were correct, TiVo would not have used its own invented DRM scheme, but would have licensed one from MS, thus chaining themselves to Microsoft for any third party device support whatsoever (be it Mac, other operating systems, pocketpc devices, portable media players, or whatever). That the windows version implements the decryption in the form of a directshow filter really has nothing to do with any partnerships, it's just the easiest way to get video from a file onto a person's screen on Windows. Just like quicktime is the easiest way to do it on a Mac. Let's flip the argument around for a 'what if': If Mac were the dominant player, and Microsoft the minority, and TD was released initially as Mac-only with a quicktime component, and the(hypothetical) 'video iPod' could play tivo files, would that imply that TiVo had to have a deal with Apple to get the quicktime component done? No. They could have rather easily used the published api to write it themselves.
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:58 AM   #177 (Print)
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Quote:
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This is true. My speculation is that the version of the DS filter shipped with TD2.0 Win was only a preliminary version, released to have something out in time for CES and to reach the largest possible audience (win users) with it. This would be why the leaked beta had at least some form of program access control that 'artificially' restricted unsanctioned programs. I'm guessing that over the next few releases, Mac or Windows, we'll see more artificial restrictions over what we can use to play and work with .tivo files(which will be annoying to say the least).


Right

And what I think is really going on here is that TiVo is waiting for some third party (under contract with TiVo) to create a "closed" player and "closed" editor for the Mac under the "new" regime," and that Mac compatibility will not be released under this original regime.

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Old 04-20-2005, 08:58 AM   #178 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Directshow doesn't seem any more secure than Quicktime. Any Windows program that uses it properly ought to be able to open a .tivo and save as to mpeg without any transcoding in the same way it would save an imported mpeg back to mpeg. It just so happens Sonic pops up a message saying you can't do that when a .tivo is involved, but I believe that is just an artificial restriction. And WMP won't save it either.



correct, and like gonzotek says TiVo looks to be shutting down apps one by one. So it is left to people to figure out and use graph edit or write a program that does the same thing. I think it is just easier on a Mac to do the same thing and the results are probably better if codec hell is avoided on the Mac.

It is just speculation though so nothing definitive can be finally said.

but yes on MS I was using mpegs from tivo pretty quickly and it was not due to any deep understanding of TiVo DRM - just a manipulation of filters.

PS - yes, I agree TiVo is waiting for some closed player written by a third party or in conjunction with in house developers. The expensive part may be the "revised estimates" that can frequently happen in such a project.
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Old 04-20-2005, 09:38 AM   #179 (Print)
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Originally Posted by gonzotek
Microsoft sells their own drm schemes. If your scenario were correct, TiVo would not have used its own invented DRM scheme, but would have licensed one from MS, thus chaining themselves to Microsoft for any third party device support whatsoever (be it Mac, other operating systems, pocketpc devices, portable media players, or whatever). That the windows version implements the decryption in the form of a directshow filter really has nothing to do with any partnerships, it's just the easiest way to get video from a file onto a person's screen on Windows. Just like quicktime is the easiest way to do it on a Mac. Let's flip the argument around for a 'what if': If Mac were the dominant player, and Microsoft the minority, and TD was released initially as Mac-only with a quicktime component, and the(hypothetical) 'video iPod' could play tivo files, would that imply that TiVo had to have a deal with Apple to get the quicktime component done? No. They could have rather easily used the published api to write it themselves.


Not sure about this.

It seems to me that TiVo had to invent their own DRM because the DRM had to be applied *on the tivo box itself*. Otherwise, if it were applied "after download" onto the PC, then all you would have needed to do was intercept the network stream before being received by TiVoDesktop to receive unencrypted shows.

My guess is that Microsoft's own proprietary DRM software isn't ported to Linux.

Let alone TiVo's modded Linux.
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Old 04-20-2005, 09:53 AM   #180 (Print)
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Not sure about this.

It seems to me that TiVo had to invent their own DRM because the DRM had to be applied *on the tivo box itself*. Otherwise, if it were applied "after download" onto the PC, then all you would have needed to do was intercept the network stream before being received by TiVoDesktop to receive unencrypted shows.

My guess is that Microsoft's own proprietary DRM software isn't ported to Linux.

Let alone TiVo's modded Linux.
It's true that they need the stream to come out encrypted to start with. But there's nothing of a technical nature stopping MS from writing drm code for Linux and nothing technical would prevent them from using the modified TiVo System source code (provided under NDA by TiVo) to port something over. The cost of doing so might be prohibitive, and the nature of the hardware of the TiVo might make it highly impractical, but it *could* have been done that way, and based on previous Microsoft business techniques, if I were Microsoft making a deal with TiVo I'd at least try to lock them into my way of doing things.
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