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Old 06-22-2005, 07:36 AM   #121 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
You got me thinking about the "Price of Star Trek"
Now that may still be expensive for your taste, which is fine, but next time you hear someone warning you that MPAA is going to take over the world and make you pay your annual salary to watch a bad sitcom, just remember that the trend has been the opposite.


See, you went and touched on a subject I know something about. During the early 80's around the time of the Sony Betamax ruling videos of some movies were available, but at a price of $80 to $100 and these could only be purchased by movie rental businesses and rentals in my area averaged $5 for two nights. Again the MPAA was trying to maximize their profits when as we see the home sales market is so very big. Within a year or two video rental stores were popping up everywhere and the price for renting movies dropped to $1 a night. Roughly 5 years later video's started showing up in stores for purchase and today you can buy a feature length movie at Walmart for less than $10.

The reason that shows are inexpensive today doesn't have anything to do with any supposed altruism from the MPAA and their affliated companies, but because of a simple court ruling and market forces. If it had been up to the MPAA we'd still be there paying out the nose for anything they produce. The trend has been the opposite because people stood up and said this is wrong...and in this particular instance got a judge to agree.

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Old 06-22-2005, 09:19 AM   #122 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigg
WOW. A LOT of replies.

@classicsat:
I'm not saying that NO ONE should be selling music. If they want to sell music, they should be able to. HOWEVER, they SHOULD NOT be able to have the government cheating customers by having copyright laws. If they can make a profit on a CD that has no copyright law against it, then they are good at making a product that people will buy. Using force, and SCARING customers who download into buying shows that they have an overpriced/undervalued product, and that they need to make something that will appeal to customers enough so that they will not download/share it.


They aren't cheating customers. The producers put out simple rules to follow if you want the content, and if you don't want to follow those rules, you simply don't get the content.

If a product is downloaded, from other than a pay service, the downloader is not a custome, but a thief.

And the product may not be overvalued for others, they may very well find value in a CD or DVD. I don't go buying DVDs or CDs mind you, not because they may be over valued, but becasue I get plenty of entertainment for broadcast sources. If I find the right deal on a CD or DVD I'd want, I'd likely buy it.
Quote:

@Stormspace:
very true. I love the Simpsons. They have season 4 DVDs out, and they are now on Season 16. They are also HIGHLY overpriced at $50/season, which is RIDICULOUS. Maybe $20 with the Season DVDs coming out at the end of the season (like Season 16s coming out this week) and then I would buy them. Until them I will download TV rips or DVD rips.

IMO, $30 is the price point I may buy some (lime the first season of Friends or the like
Quote:
@gonzotek:
I'm not saying that federal law should make them give away their stuff. If they can make money without a nasty, choice-limiting copyright law, then good for them. Any sport or hobby coasts money. Being a band is no different.
Quote:
And if copyright law hals them make more money, so they want to produce more produce, and good product, good for them.


@cynthetiq:
Exactly. The movie and music industries are HARVESTING money out of our packets like a tractor harvests wheat out of a field. The field gets nothing in return. We get very little. They basically are stealing from us, not the other way around.

No they are doing buisness, and f you don't like their buisness practices, then don't use that disdain as an excuse to steal their product.
Quote:

@ZeoTiVo:
If they can make money, then thats great for them. They make a few extra $$$ on the side of a real job so they can afford a new computer or big screen TV, or more musical gadgets or whatever. There is a site called cdbaby.com. They sell indie CDs and they are all like $5. They are a great site. Unlike the RIAA who STEALS FROM ARTISTS and like kicks them out if they can't sell ten bazillion cds, CDbaby has realistic expecations. CD baby lets them sell one cd a year, if thats what the artist can sell.

Unfortunately, if they have to eat, that site won't cut it, as they probably don't promote as much a a record company would, to make people know the CD is out there.


Quote:
LOTR needed to rely on so many sales because they overspent, overspend, and overspent AGAIN. It DOES NOT take that much to make a movie. Now, they have the best cinematography ever, but look at some of the special features on the extended DVDs. It was reidiculous.


but you have to admit, they mad it good (not that I've seen LOTR anyway).

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Old 06-22-2005, 09:30 AM   #123 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
The reason that shows are inexpensive today doesn't have anything to do with any supposed altruism from the MPAA and their affliated companies, but because of a simple court ruling and market forces. If it had been up to the MPAA we'd still be there paying out the nose for anything they produce. The trend has been the opposite because people stood up and said this is wrong...and in this particular instance got a judge to agree.


You lost me - what "supposed altruism", what judge and what people stood up and said what was wrong? (Market forces I understand at least, because that's mostly was I was talking about.)
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Old 06-22-2005, 09:35 AM   #124 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
You lost me - what "supposed altruism", what judge and what people stood up and said what was wrong?


Sony stood up and told the MPAA that they were wrong and the Judge agreed. Of course this was long before Sony became a big media company.

The altruism comment was made in response to your comment that the MPAA was not out to rob us blind. My point was that it was not for trying and it took a court order to change things. In the Sony betamax ruling we could now time shift recordings and the MPAA had to allow it. Ultimately the MPAA member companies benefited much more than consumers with the advent of the betamax and vhs, but without that ruling there is no telling what you woudl be paying for a season of the simpsons now, or even if they would have made it available.

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Last edited by Stormspace : 06-22-2005 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:18 AM   #125 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
Sony stood up and told the MPAA that they were wrong and the Judge agreed. Of course this was long before Sony became a big media company.


Oh that. LOL! A company who makes a product fighting that it's wrong to stop them from making it. But that was always a rather ridiculous case prior to the DMCA - ie suing a company who makes a product that can be used for good and for bad rather than suing the people who use it for bad. They only did that, of course, because it was more convenient to sue a multi-billion dollar company than to run around suing kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
The altruism comment was made in response to your comment that the MPAA was not out to rob us blind. My point was that it was not for trying and it took a court order to change things. In the Sony betamax ruling we could now time shift recordings and the MPAA had to allow it. Ultimately the MPAA member companies benefited much more than consumers with the advent of the betamax and vhs, but without that ruling there is no telling what you woudl be paying for a season of the simpsons now, or even if they would have made it available.


The MPAA didn't sue Sony over timeshifting. In fact, it was possibly to their detriment that they really didn't argue against timeshifting at all. Of course, everyone wants to maximize profits, but few companies really want to rob anyone blind because this rarely leads to maximizing profits. There's a certain amount of money that you can get for a TV show and experimentation in the market by various players have shown that for many shows, lower prices lead to higher overall profits. But of course, it depends somewhat on the show. Some shows will simply never sell at the higher rates even with a lower price so they will generally be priced higher. The bottom line is that no one can rob you blind over a TV show, because no one (even on a TiVo forum ) is that addicted to TV.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:30 PM   #126 (Print)
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You mean I can do without that TiVo drip beside my bed? LOL!

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Old 06-22-2005, 12:37 PM   #127 (Print)
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Uh oh. Now the TiVo secret police are going to be after me.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:56 PM   #128 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
The MPAA didn't sue Sony over timeshifting.


from the EFF page
Sony v. Universal Studios

..."The district court expressly found pervasive librarying activities, and the uncontroverted survey evidence established that 69% to 75% of all Betamax owners maintain large libraries of off-the-air recordings and that the vast majority of programs in those libraries are copyrighted motion pictures.... This same survey shows that less than 9% of all recordings consists of religious (0%), educational (1.6%), and sports (7.3%) programs -- the type of material purportedly owned by most of the limited number of witnesses who testified that they did not object to VTR copying." ...

"...Disney and Universal claimed that an inexpensive "jamming" circuit could be inexpensively added to the Betamax that would respond to a "broadcast flag" embedded in TV broadcasts..."

Ok. They didn't use the word timeshifting. But since they are talking about TV broadcasts I don't see what else they could have been worried about. Whoas us if the broacast flag makes it through congress, then we'll have a time limit on all our recordings, or not be able to record them at all. Instead of a recording we'll get a nice message,

"This recording was blocked in accordance with the Broadcast Flag measures inacted...."

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Old 06-22-2005, 01:07 PM   #129 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Uh oh. Now the TiVo secret police are going to be after me.


actually there is a thread to read about needing a TiVo drip
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ife+wont+delete
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:08 PM   #130 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
Ok. They didn't use the word timeshifting. But since they are talking about TV broadcasts I don't see what else they could have been worried about.


Almost everything on TV is copyrighted so I don't understand your "what else" statement.

I read the case some years ago and as I recall there was an actual use of the word timeshifting but it was made by a judge who said that timeshifting appeared to be a probable non-infringing use that the plaintiff hadn't objected to. (Or said anything about - can't remember the exact words.) My memory could be loosing bits but I didn't see anything in your quotes that appears to contradict it.

The lawsuit was about the ability of machine to copy anything to anything that could last forever. Timeshifting is about watching something a few days or a week later when you get back from vacation. Also, the VCRs of this era had rather slow FF so it wasn't all that easy to ignore the commercials in the time-shifted material and I don't believe any evidence was provided as to how much anyone did.

By the way, in case it wasn't clear, the part I really found funny about that was the idea that Sony defending itself was "people stood up and said this is wrong". It was really one huge business fighting another huge business for the privilege to make more money at the expense of the other. Some of "the people" may have been thrilled by the decision but it wasn't really about them. It's more like one of those old dinosaur B-movies where the people are chased by one dinosaur who gets distracted by another dinosaur and they fight while the people sneak away.

Last edited by dgh : 06-22-2005 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:12 PM   #131 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
actually there is a thread to read about needing a TiVo drip
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...ife+wont+delete


Yeah but I think the key there is that she's able to collect an essentially unlimited amount of TV for more or less nothing. If she was paying by the episode, I'll bet she'd be willing to only record as much as she actually could watch.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:19 PM   #132 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Yeah but I think the key there is that she's able to collect an essentially unlimited amount of TV for more or less nothing. If she was paying by the episode, I'll bet she'd be willing to only record as much as she actually could watch.


Shhh. They're watching. Don't give them ideas.

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Old 06-22-2005, 01:23 PM   #133 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
By the way, in case it wasn't clear, the part I really found funny about that was the idea that Sony defending itself was "people stood up and said this is wrong". It was really one huge business fighting another huge business for the privilege to make more money at the expense of the other. Some of "the people" may have been thrilled by the decision but it wasn't really about them. It's more like one of those old dinosaur B-movies where the people are chased by one dinosaur who gets distracted by another dinosaur and they fight while the people sneak away.


This is very true, my reference to people should have had a more indirect reference. As judges are appointed by elected officials, indirectly they speak for us in court decisions. Your analogy about the two monsters is completely valid and if it had been you or me fighting Universal there would never have been a VCR.

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Old 06-22-2005, 01:28 PM   #134 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Almost everything on TV is copyrighted so I don't understand your "what else" statement.


From the excerpts I copied from the EFF site it appeared as if the whole of the suit was based on recording broadcast TV. Some for movies, others for TV shows. This act in itself constitutes timeshifting, whether it be a few hours, days, or even years. I didn't see anything about recording movies from one tape to another, but at the time video rental didn't exist.

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Old 06-22-2005, 01:36 PM   #135 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Stormspace
From the excerpts I copied from the EFF site it appeared as if the whole of the suit was based on recording broadcast TV. Some for movies, others for TV shows. This act in itself constitutes timeshifting, whether it be a few hours, days, or even years. I didn't see anything about recording movies from one tape to another, but at the time video rental didn't exist.


Video rental was around in the 70s. Not that you need that to support video piracy.

I think you're really stretching the bounds on "timeshifting" to your whims. In the US, I believe it is undefined legally, but somewhere (UK? I'm not sure) a case was argued and it was decided that it was up to 21 days. (Allowing for vacations.) Most people I know who built tape libraries didn't timeshift at all - they watched the movie in real-time and made a copy for later - many of which have still never been watched as far as I can tell.

There was something specifically said by the judge about how it was nice to timeshift for people who worked late shifts so I don't think he was thinking along your lines at all. But it was relatively tangential to the case anyway I think - just mentioned in passing along with other probable non-infringing uses like video taping your kid's birthday party etc. The idea being that if the device had some non-infringing uses, how could the device itself be illegal?
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:02 PM   #136 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Video rental was around in the 70s.


I don't remember that, the first video rental place in this area opened up in 1982, give or take a year. Sony had a ruling in 1984, so if the case had been in court 5 years I suppose late 70's might have been possible in some places, but certainly by the time of the final ruling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
I think you're really stretching the bounds on "timeshifting" to your whims.


No. It's the other way around. You seem to be imposing a UK definition of time shifting whereas I'm talking about it in a literal sense. Without examining the case in detail we'll probably never know what the judges deemed as a valid time limit for shifting a show was, but we'll find out if the broadcast flag is passed.

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Old 06-22-2005, 02:11 PM   #137 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Yeah but I think the key there is that she's able to collect an essentially unlimited amount of TV for more or less nothing. If she was paying by the episode, I'll bet she'd be willing to only record as much as she actually could watch.


yes, I really am a timeshifter and not much of an archivist at all. Don't own many DVDs and only like being able to burn them so I can watch elsewhere. I agree with the idea that there are a LOT of tapes and other forms of copies made that are just collecting dust.
That being siad it really makes the argument that <shudder> broadcast flags may not make much of a difference. the real fight may be over how long a copy survives and will the courts protect my rights to a long enough period of time. 21 days seems reasonable to me. 24 hours is probably the max that many providers want.

archivists will have to spend more money and I bet the amount of archiving will go way down but the shows watched will stay constant. I really think it will be file sharing places like bit torrent that get hurt by a broadcast flag or any other type of imposed DRM and it will cut the amount of material down as it takes more steps to put up content that can be freely shared. This will suck for the timeshifters like me who have to deal with the hassle of flags and other DRM.


edit - I can remember going with my dad to a video rental store in the mid 70's - privately owned and no other competiton and I can remember my dad going in there with a commercial tape while I looked around and the guy making a copy for my dad in the backroom.
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:38 PM   #138 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Stormspace
I don't remember that, the first video rental place in this area opened up in 1982, give or take a year.


In the early 70's most tape rentals happened at the same stores that sold the VCRs. Back then there were quite a few VCR stores, some of which didn't even sell TVs, just VCRs, and often tape sales and rentals. We had pure rental stores in this area by around ~78. (Well, almost pure - most of those had a couple a VCRs and disc players for sale too, but at least 90% of the floor space was the media.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
No. It's the other way around. You seem to be imposing a UK definition of time shifting whereas I'm talking about it in a literal sense.


No I'm not. I'm referring to that as the only case I know of where it has been legally decided. But notice please that in the first part of that same sentence I say "In the US, I believe it is undefined legally, " Now, no one I know uses timeshifting to describe holding on to something for years, and the judge mentioned hours, and the case didn't hinge on that, so... I again state the beginning of that sentence.
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:44 PM   #139 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
In the early 70's most tape rentals happened at the same stores that sold the VCRs. Back then there were quite a few VCR stores, some of which didn't even sell TVs, just VCRs, and often tape sales and rentals. We had pure rental stores in this area by around ~78. (Well, almost pure - most of those had a couple a VCRs and disc players for sale too, but at least 90% of the floor space was the media.)


Maybe the reason I'm not remembering that is because in the early 70's I was under 10 years old and we still had a black and white set at home using rabbit ears. Those people that really good sets used a rotary antenna controlled from the top of the set and if they were really good it was a Curtis Mathis set, the floor model.

I did a quick Google on VCR history and came up with this...

World's First Video Cassette Recorder (for home use) -- Phillips Model 1500
Introduced in England in 1972 -- 22" Wide x 6.5" High x 15" Deep

First VHS VCR -- JVC's HR-3300 -- Introduced in the Fall of 1977 -- featured a 2 hour recording time.

At the time the Phillips model was sold Video was still on reel to reel. Those video stores must have had large shelves. and the betamax came out 4 years later. You sure about those video stores in the early 70's.

Hey, found this. I wonder how it would apply to downloads. Notice how Public Domain is applied to Broadcast shows.

"Second, the huge volume of information transmitted over the airwaves by television stations is in the public domain. The VCR is merely a device that extends the function of the television -- that is, it enhances people's ability to watch information which is publicly broadcast. The only difference is that the VCR enables people to do so when it suits them." - http://www.sony.net/Fun/SH/1-31/h1.html l

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Old 06-22-2005, 04:06 PM   #140 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Stormspace
At the time the Phillips model was sold Video was still on reel to reel. Those video stores must have had large shelves. and the betamax came out 4 years later. You sure about those video stores in the early 70's.


Yes.

For starters, Beta came out in 1975. (Please google better )

There were several reel to reel formats for home use starting in the 60s and several cartridge formats prior to Beta and VHS. In fact, Beta wasn't even Sony's first Video Cassette system. ("Beta" is kind of a hint.) Sony's first home video cassette format was U-matic in 1971, but they later repositioned it as a semi-pro format when Beta was introduced

Also, I think you are greatly overestimating the size of a reel. Sony's 1964 reel to reel tapes were only a little larger than a VHS cartridge.

The problem with your eyes rolling like that might be allergies.
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:13 PM   #141 (Print)
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Originally Posted by dgh
Yes.

For starters, Beta came out in 1975. (Please google better )


I thought I googled quite well.

"1976: First Stand-alone Sony Betamax VCR Released in the U.S.

The first stand-alone Sony Betamax VCR in the United States, the SL-7200, came on the market in February 1976 priced at $1295. This unit sold much better than the previous TV/VCR combo LV-1901. The external clock to turn the unit on and off at preset times was an optional accessory.

An interesting story about the clock is that it became external at the behest of Sony chairman Akio Morita. Upon seeing a prototype unit in a lab with an internal clock, he insisted that the clock be external so that if a clock malfunction took place, it could be repaired without bringing the whole VCR to the service center. When VHS VCR's appeared on the market in 1977, their integrated clocks were used as a marketing advantage in addition to their longer recording time."

Of course, you had the TV/VCR Combo unit released in 75?

Video rental at that time must have been home movies or something.
(I think a bus flew in my eye that time it was open so big.)

See below

"When the VCR was first introduced as a consumer item, it was viewed as a device for "time shifting" television shows to more convenient viewing hours. However, it subsequently became clear that there was significant market demand for pre-recorded videos. The first company to sell pre-recorded videos was Andre Blay's Video Club of America. He acquired fifty titles from Twentieth Century Fox studios that had all been previously sold to network TV. At the time of his first ad (in an October 1977 issue of TV Guide), there were fewer than 200,000 VCR owners, but more than 9,000 of them joined Blay's video club." - http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/issue6_5/roehl/#r2

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Old 06-22-2005, 04:21 PM   #142 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Stormspace
I thought I googled quite well.


You could have done worse, but you could have done better too like spotting the reference to the previous unit which was the first of what was at least Sony's third video format. (Counting at least CV, U-Matic and then Beta, but ignoring their higher end stuff like EV.)
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:26 PM   #143 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Stormspace
Video rental at that time must have been home movies or something.


Well, yes, there were people renting what you called "timeshifted" movies

There were also a number of videos of movies and shows put out by various little companies that had statements like: we believe the copyright on this work has expired - if you believe otherwise - please let us know. (At the address which was almost always a PO box. ) I think I still have some of those.

What you described above could possibly be the first licensed use. I think I remember that but never used it.
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:30 PM   #144 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
Well, yes, there were people renting what you called "timeshifted" movies

There were also a number of videos of movies and shows put out by various little companies that had statements like: we believe the copyright on this work has expired - if you believe otherwise - please let us know. (At the address which was almost always a PO box. ) I think I still have some of those.


Ah, I see. It was a little black market operation...The kind that law suit was trying to stop. You can hardly consider that a mainstream video rental outlet even of the gas station variety found in BFE. I'm glad we cleared this up. Thanks!

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Old 06-22-2005, 04:35 PM   #145 (Print)
dgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
Of course, you had the TV/VCR Combo unit released in 75?


I couldn't afford any of this stuff until 1978. However, I had been visiting the stores and reading the magazines since 1973. (As for mainstream, they were, at that time "the stream" as far as I recall. And yes, video piracy has been around for a long time - and 16mm before that.)

Of course, one of the reasons that I didn't have money to buy the VCR till 1978 was the personal computer I built in 1976. Saying that usually freaks the youngsters out too.
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Old 06-23-2005, 07:10 AM   #146 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgh
I couldn't afford any of this stuff until 1978. However, I had been visiting the stores and reading the magazines since 1973. (As for mainstream, they were, at that time "the stream" as far as I recall. And yes, video piracy has been around for a long time - and 16mm before that.)

Of course, one of the reasons that I didn't have money to buy the VCR till 1978 was the personal computer I built in 1976. Saying that usually freaks the youngsters out too.


Impressive. Several of my friends built their own computers. In fact one of them worked for a place that ordered the kits and put them together for other people. He goes on about this and that periodically and I thank God that I came along slightly later and missed all of that fun. I waited for a while before I got into PC's starting with the TI. Used a B&W TV and a tape drive and had a whopping 16k of memory. It was a good starter computer and my mother could afford it. 100.00 at K-mart.

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Old 06-23-2005, 07:52 AM   #147 (Print)
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just as a side note I called my dad - it ws the mid 70's - it was a BETAMAX player but he no longer uses it because it had the remote on a wire He could not remember the model anymore. I remember it had a cool loading tray that rose straight up out ofthe top of the unit and you slid the tape in and then it lowered back down.

he does have a SOny Betamax he bought in the early 80s to replace it that had a wireless remote and slot loader like we are used to today. He still uses that one.

The store was an elctronics type store with all sorts of stuff, he bought a quadrophonic stereo from there, still uses that as well with reel to reel tapes. The videos were just a section of the store and I can remember the the big deal whem VHS tapes came along and people in the store shaking their head over the poorer quality and how they had no wish to switch, etc...

likie I said Dad still uses the Betamax to record shows but he has two VHS VCRs so he can make and dub VHS tape. The guy sure likes to hold on to his stuff.


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Old 06-23-2005, 09:14 AM   #148 (Print)
classicsat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
Hey, found this. I wonder how it would apply to downloads. Notice how Public Domain is applied to Broadcast shows.

"Second, the huge volume of information transmitted over the airwaves by television stations is in the public domain. The VCR is merely a device that extends the function of the television -- that is, it enhances people's ability to watch information which is publicly broadcast. The only difference is that the VCR enables people to do so when it suits them." - http://www.sony.net/Fun/SH/1-31/h1.html l


Not it the US, or much of the civilized world. Broadcast is just distribution. Even if OTA for free, it doesn't remove its copyright status. Such a fallacy that broadcast=Public Domain, is perpetuated by "pirates", the same way Abandonware isn't a real copyright status, just one that pople dreamed up so they could obtain, use, and disribute old copyrighted software without paying or obtaining the rights otherwise.

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Old 06-23-2005, 09:33 AM   #149 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicsat
Not it the US, or much of the civilized world. Broadcast is just distribution. Even if OTA for free, it doesn't remove its copyright status. Such a fallacy that broadcast=Public Domain, is perpetuated by "pirates", the same way Abandonware isn't a real copyright status, just one that pople dreamed up so they could obtain, use, and disribute old copyrighted software without paying or obtaining the rights otherwise.


Yeah, but did you notice the source. Hardly a pirate.

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Old 06-23-2005, 09:48 AM   #150 (Print)
dgh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormspace
Yeah, but did you notice the source. Hardly a pirate.


I did - A company being sued for just that. A fine "argument" (as the page says) for their lawyers, but the decision of the judges wasn't nearly so dramatic.

Last edited by dgh : 06-23-2005 at 12:14 PM.
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