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Old 06-28-2005, 11:21 AM   #121 (Print)
Big_Daddy
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After reading this thread, I don't want to eat out ever again. Ignorance really is bliss.

Toilet bowls? "Pulp" in the lemonade?

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Old 06-28-2005, 12:09 PM   #122 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by niferbee
That and her whole intro to the show is (I swear) the same exact thing every time ("In the time it takes you to watch this show, ...") Gets old.


This is what 30-second-skip was MADE for.

"And it'll be ready in less th -- "
(skip)
" -- to finish!"

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Old 06-28-2005, 04:09 PM   #123 (Print)
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I think 'forced' tips are abominable. Or rather 'guilty' tips is a better word. When i was young, on my first airplane trip, i checked the bags at the curb and the guy literally said, we work on tips. I resented that. Sure i may not have known the 'rules' but it sure gave me a lifetime distain for people like that with their hands out. As a result, I wouldn't even think of tipping things like wedding djs and the like. Also (I guess it was mentioned in this or another thread) tipping at all inclusive resorts seems like extortion in some manner based on what ive read. I'd be worried about getting 'free' drinks there now.

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Old 06-28-2005, 04:32 PM   #124 (Print)
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My point is, why is there a difference (minimum wage for people working with tips)? There should not be, and a tip should be out of generosity, not duty. Many people work off of bonuses, are they "assumed" by the government as well? I resent the hands out person also, as mentioned above. If I thought you performed beyond your job, I would have tipped you. This is your job, you chose it, be good at it. My job doesn't tip, sometimes I wish it did, but then I wake up.
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Old 06-28-2005, 04:32 PM   #125 (Print)
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My experience when working in food industry:

I worked at a pretty upscale bar and restaurant at a business resort on Lake Travis in Austin. Base salary was about 2$ higher than normal waiters, so already I'm off to a good start.

When a day's shift was over, I'm making 13-15$ an hour. Very solid.

I had no problem making take out orders for people coming from the pool and rarely, if ever, would take out orders result in a tip. The food charge still goes on my acct. though, lowering the overall tip %. Also, one pay period a couple came in and ordered 30$ a glass tequila's. They each had 2. 120$ tab, 5$ tip. No problem considering I spent 10 minutes of my time watching them, except that my tip % gets crushed by this.

At the end of a period in which my avg. % was 14-15%, my boss brought me in and gave me a warning. Bring it up or your gone. (This % looked at tips when tax included.)

15% before tax is an outdated standard for normal, pleasant, not too bad service.
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Old 06-28-2005, 04:46 PM   #126 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jradford
15% before tax is an outdated standard for normal, pleasant, not too bad service.


Of course, that is wrong, but if not, then you get to the point that the tip goes up as the dining prices have gone up.
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Old 06-28-2005, 05:43 PM   #127 (Print)
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I have never waited/waitressed, but feel this MUST violate some kind of equity law and should be brought up in the courts!
Laws are made by the legislature, not the courts. The legislature is elected by all of us, and reflects our collective standards.
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Old 06-28-2005, 06:52 PM   #128 (Print)
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I have said this before the reason the TIPS moved beyond rewarding service and into paying salary is it allows the establishment advertise artificially low prices.

Name one place that is tip based where the ads beit a restaurant or a cruise line advertises the full prices.

The establishment has a vested interest in the tipping concept and it has nothing to do rewarding the employee.

They know its a drug for a lot of people to say they tip and the smile they put on the employee's faces and they use this feature to draw you in when you see the price.

Yes our brain knows we have to add 15%-20% but you also sort of ignore it too when making decisions.

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Old 06-28-2005, 09:25 PM   #129 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jradford
My experience when working in food industry:

I worked at a pretty upscale bar and restaurant at a business resort on Lake Travis in Austin. Base salary was about 2$ higher than normal waiters, so already I'm off to a good start.

When a day's shift was over, I'm making 13-15$ an hour. Very solid.

I had no problem making take out orders for people coming from the pool and rarely, if ever, would take out orders result in a tip. The food charge still goes on my acct. though, lowering the overall tip %. Also, one pay period a couple came in and ordered 30$ a glass tequila's. They each had 2. 120$ tab, 5$ tip. No problem considering I spent 10 minutes of my time watching them, except that my tip % gets crushed by this.

At the end of a period in which my avg. % was 14-15%, my boss brought me in and gave me a warning. Bring it up or your gone. (This % looked at tips when tax included.)

15% before tax is an outdated standard for normal, pleasant, not too bad service.


While I understand and even see your total logic on how you legitimately get screwed, I do think that since you and others choose to be in the biz, you have to take the good with the bad.

I don't understand your example actually now that I've reread it....why does your boss care about your tip %? Is he making up the difference?

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Old 06-29-2005, 12:01 AM   #130 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Laws are made by the legislature, not the courts. The legislature is elected by all of us, and reflects our collective standards.


HA! I don't want to get into politics but let me just say that I wish your description was accurate...
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Old 06-29-2005, 01:11 AM   #131 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeDondeEs
I am proud to say that I have NEVER waited tables. After reading this stuff I am glad that I haven't because I am not under the delusion to needlessly throw more money away than necessary. Notice that everyone says they USED to wait tables. Why don't they still wait them, because it's a low paying entry level job. I used to work at a convienience store, I don't feel the need to give the employees working there more money, nor did I expect a tip. It is "customary" to tip a 15% standard, one should expect that when waiting tables. As a previous poster said, you will have low tippers and high tippers to balance out.


The difference is that many food service jobs are actually skilled labor, but it's the social custom in America to subsidize the skilled labor of the food service personel by tipping. If every restaurant in the US overnight changed to a "gratuity included in food pricing" method and raised the cost of food, it would probably work out ok. But no individual restaurant can do it on its own without looking expensive relative to other restaurants. So, owners can't raise pay and servers are forced to rely on tips. Most servers I know are working for the tip money, not the paycheck. Restaurants automatically assume you're getting tipped a certain percent of your bill totals and withold your taxes based on that amount (whether or not you actually do), so paychecks get eaten up by the taxes on the tips you supposedly received. Don't forget that the service people are also possibly giving a percentage of tips to busboys and food runners.

15% doesn't cut it for good service, which another poster outlined beautifully. All I'd add to that list is that I wouldn't be shy about asking for good service if I'm not receiving it. "Can my date get a refill?" "It looks like you forgot the side dressing. Can I get that?" "May we see a dessert menu?" etc.

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Old 06-29-2005, 01:16 AM   #132 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrohip
Along these same lines, at this local cafeteria we eat at (Luby's--big in TX), when you get food to go, and charge it, the slip they print has a line for TIP. That's really a WTF? Tip for picking up food?


I've done that job too. Someone takes the time to stop the other work they're doing (tending bar, serving drinks, making coffee, etc) to get on the phone and take your order. That person has to have a full knowledge of the menu to answer your potential questions. They enter it into the order system and coordinate the food with your arrival time. They package it for you and organize it for carry out while juggling their other work. And they deserve a tip, though smaller than the one you would give for full service, closer to equal if they carry it to your car for you.

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Old 06-29-2005, 06:30 AM   #133 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjohn

15% doesn't cut it for good service, which another poster outlined beautifully. .


Wrong on both counts. Neither you nor the other poster stated one single reason why the 15% "doesn't cut it." Not one. Not even close. Nothing was "outlined beautifully" except people complaining about the money they made in a job they willingly accepted.

Anecdotes about "the day the boss god mad at me" are not a reason to think the tip standard is higher, and neither is any reason subjective/personal reason you gave. I can sit all day and say my salary (if I had one) should be raised simply because I want more money, or that taxes are taken out, or medicare, or whatever, and that I need more to get by. How ridiculous it would be for me to think that the salary for my job should be raised (not jost mine -- the entire industry) because of my personal circumstances.

But, hey -- I've never been a waiter so the issues of logic, economics, market, and all those other issues magically go "poof" for that one clas of jobs.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:55 AM   #134 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjohn
The difference is that many food service jobs are actually skilled labor, but it's the social custom in America to subsidize the skilled labor of the food service personel by tipping.
This point right here is the crux of the issue to me. The social structure in America dictates that a tip is an unwritten part of the meal price. Until that social structure changes, those of you that are so deadset against tipping should not eat out at restaurants, bottom line. That way, you're putting your money where your mouth is-- you're not tipping, and the restaurant industry's income will go down, forcing them to re-evaluate their structure.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:30 AM   #135 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Platt
Until that social structure changes, those of you that are so deadset against tipping should not eat out at restaurants, bottom line. That way, you're putting your money where your mouth is-- you're not tipping, and the restaurant industry's income will go down, forcing them to re-evaluate their structure.


Without going back and reading all of the 5 pages of posts, who are "those of you deadset against tipping?" I am not sure where this has ever been an issue on this thread.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:52 AM   #136 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newsposter
While I understand and even see your total logic on how you legitimately get screwed, I do think that since you and others choose to be in the biz, you have to take the good with the bad.

I don't understand your example actually now that I've reread it....why does your boss care about your tip %? Is he making up the difference?

No, he's watching out for his customers and assuming that they aren't happy.
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Old 06-29-2005, 11:24 AM   #137 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SR2
Without going back and reading all of the 5 pages of posts, who are "those of you deadset against tipping?" I am not sure where this has ever been an issue on this thread.
Sorry; I was referring to the 'great tipping debate' over all, not just specifically this thread. It may not have come up in this thread, but it has come up many times in past discussions over in HH.
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Old 06-29-2005, 12:54 PM   #138 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Platt
This point right here is the crux of the issue to me. The social structure in America dictates that a tip is an unwritten part of the meal price. Until that social structure changes, those of you that are so deadset against tipping should not eat out at restaurants, bottom line. That way, you're putting your money where your mouth is-- you're not tipping, and the restaurant industry's income will go down, forcing them to re-evaluate their structure.


I think the problem with this is that you freely admit that tipping is an 'unwritten' part of the meal price.
We all know it's only part of the price at some restaurants and not others, and so far I haven't seen anyone give a rational, objective reason for what the proper percentage should be.
A few of the ex-servers have said 15% doesn't cut it. Why not? What does? 16%? 25%? 100%??

When I was young (I'm 32) I seem to recall that 10% was standard at the types of restaurants my family ate at (Denny's, Coco's, Chili's et. al.)

When I grew up I understood that 15% was the new standard (no idea how I learned that, probably heard it on TV).

A co-worker of mine who used to work at an upscale steak house (Del Frisco's if you've ever heard of it - awesome steaks!) recently told me that he considered a 15% tip an insult.
I was shocked.
I normally tip about 20% for good service - partly because I can afford it, partly because the math is easier. I thought I was being a fairly generous guy. Now it sounds like I might be a cheapskate, or at best average.

While that is a disappointment, I'm going to have an awfully hard time tipping more than 20% unless some of you can provide real reasons beyond, "they deserve it."
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Old 06-29-2005, 02:34 PM   #139 (Print)
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I say it again the establishment will take every oppurtunity to reduce costs, salary is one of them. They effectively will not give raises and presume more and more that tips are the salary.

So the assumption is that inflation is managed through TIPS. I hate that word because its a lie.

Therefore It will consistently creep up as time progresses. I can see a point where they will try to incorporate other soft costs into the tip like back office labor - busboys, dishwashers.

They probably would even try to incorporate hard materials like the steaks themselves but management pays that bill and thats a little too risky.

As long as we play this game and increase our tips so that the system works, management WILL continue to push more costs into it.

If there was a restaurant and we all effectively tipped only at 5% which correlates more to what a TIP is about and not added salary, wouldnt you see the staff complaining loudly and eventually something would change.

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Old 06-29-2005, 04:12 PM   #140 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Tangent
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The legislature is elected by all of us, and reflects our collective standards.
HA! I don't want to get into politics but let me just say that I wish your description was accurate...
I didn't say it necessarily reflects your personal preferences -- I said it reflects our collective standards.
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:18 PM   #141 (Print)
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You're mistaken. They're presuming that patrons will cover part of the cost of service "just as much" -- not, as you asserted, "more and more." There has been no change in the last 10 or even 20 years in the extent to which full-service restaurants make that presumption. That is because the extent to which it is part of the full-service restaurant patron's obligation hasn't changed in that much time.

What a tip is all about is placing power to control a significant-enough amount of server compensation in the hands of the person best able to determine how good the service is: The patron.
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:24 PM   #142 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovr8ted
I DO NOT understand why the government is able to keep these peoples wages below minimum wage! I have never waited/waitressed, but feel this MUST violate some kind of equity law and should be brought up in the courts!

What's an equity law?
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:56 PM   #143 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
What a tip is all about is placing power to control a significant-enough amount of server compensation in the hands of the person best able to determine how good the service is: The patron.


You hit the nail on the head. A good server makes more money than the manager. At high-end restaurants, they can pull in hundreds of dollars a night. Even at someplace like Pizza Hut, a good server can make $150 or more on a weekend night.

The practice of servers living on tips is Darwinian. Those that do it well are compensated well and keep doing it. Those that don't do it well, don't make enough to live on, and quickly find something else to do.
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Old 06-29-2005, 04:58 PM   #144 (Print)
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Originally Posted by jradford
No, he's watching out for his customers and assuming that they aren't happy.


Goodness I'm not in the biz but I can tell you that I can be happy with everything and only tip 15%. Exceptional service gets more but doing what I believe is expected (IE what makes me happy), will get 15%. So if he's mad about 15% just because he thinks that means customers aren't happy i think he needs to re-evaluate his methodology and perhaps do a customer survey. If it was 5%, then I could see his point...maybe.

Purely my view as a customer.

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Old 06-29-2005, 05:48 PM   #145 (Print)
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I didn't say it necessarily reflects your personal preferences -- I said it reflects our collective standards.


Depends on where you live I suppose. Here in California we have a large number of legislators pushing bills that 60% or more of the public strongly oppose... They don't represent us because the districts are drawn in a way that effectively guarantees them reelection therefore they feel no need to do what the voters want. In short - California legislators don't reflect the standards of the vast majority of the population.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:21 PM   #146 (Print)
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That's a very common refrain of the disenfranchised. It's much less true that some would have us believe.
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Old 06-29-2005, 06:52 PM   #147 (Print)
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That's a very common refrain of the disenfranchised. It's much less true that some would have us believe.

The fact that very few local government races are competitive is well known.
Gerrymandering in the information age is an incredible tool to protect incumbents.

Here in CA we may get a chance this November to vote to take the power of gerrymandering out of the hands of local politicians. Here's to hoping we take that opportunity.
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Old 06-29-2005, 10:41 PM   #148 (Print)
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That's a very common refrain of the disenfranchised. It's much less true that some would have us believe.


Take a look at how some of our congessional districts are drawn and then tell me that we're being fairly represented.

http://www.fairdistricts.com/elementals/the-capper.gif
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Old 06-30-2005, 03:09 AM   #149 (Print)
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I don't doubt that there is gerrymandering. I doubt that it is anything other than a reflection of the wishes of the electorate.

In other words, what I've been trying to say politely, but clearly politeness isn't helpful: Instead of complaining about your lack of power, either do something about it or accept it. Complaining about it, and recriminating others due to it, isn't constructive.

And none of this has anything to do with Rachael Ray or even tipping, so let's move back onto topic, okay?
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Old 06-30-2005, 11:07 AM   #150 (Print)
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I don't doubt that there is gerrymandering. I doubt that it is anything other than a reflection of the wishes of the electorate.

In other words, what I've been trying to say politely, but clearly politeness isn't helpful: Instead of complaining about your lack of power, either do something about it or accept it. Complaining about it, and recriminating others due to it, isn't constructive.

And none of this has anything to do with Rachael Ray or even tipping, so let's move back onto topic, okay?

...You do understand that the electorate has no say in how the districts are drawn, don't you...?
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