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Old 06-30-2005, 11:19 AM   #151 (Print)
jradford
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Originally Posted by newsposter
Goodness I'm not in the biz but I can tell you that I can be happy with everything and only tip 15%. Exceptional service gets more but doing what I believe is expected (IE what makes me happy), will get 15%. So if he's mad about 15% just because he thinks that means customers aren't happy i think he needs to re-evaluate his methodology and perhaps do a customer survey. If it was 5%, then I could see his point...maybe.

Purely my view as a customer.

This is essentially my point. While 15% before tax might be given by the customer as a way of saying, "thank you, good service," most of the industry, (the bartender, the waiter, the management) will view this as a troublesome tip. I am not suggesting that anyone tipping this amount is somehow cheap or stingy, because you are GIVING the restaurant more money than they charged, no matter what the tip. I'm just trying to help show why someone might be dissapointed in that tip besides just the "I want more money" reason.
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:02 PM   #152 (Print)
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Originally Posted by jradford
This is essentially my point. While 15% before tax might be given by the customer as a way of saying, "thank you, good service," most of the industry, (the bartender, the waiter, the management) will view this as a troublesome tip. I am not suggesting that anyone tipping this amount is somehow cheap or stingy, because you are GIVING the restaurant more money than they charged, no matter what the tip. I'm just trying to help show why someone might be dissapointed in that tip besides just the "I want more money" reason.


But.... even under your explanation it is still the "I want more money" reason.
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Old 06-30-2005, 12:10 PM   #153 (Print)
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Maybe they SHOULD ASK THEIR BOSS FOR A RAISE.

Isnt that what we do!!!!

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Old 06-30-2005, 12:14 PM   #154 (Print)
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As someone who spent over 10 years in the restaurant business in every aspect from cook, waiter, bartender, host, trainer, tech support, to manager (and a few other positions I'm forgetting) I can tell you that tipping is not only dependant on the quality of service. There are a few other factors:

1. Sex of the waitor/waitress. Waitresses tend to make much more than waitors. Especially if they are good looking.

2. Cleintele. (sp?) I've waited tables in Dallas and made a ton of money. I've waited tables in my small town and made much less. (Rednecks don't tip much! )

3. Type of establishment.


That said, 15% was always good for me. Anything more was gravy.


I think everyone should be required to wait tables for a year. You learn a lot about human nature. Both good and bad.

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Old 06-30-2005, 12:36 PM   #155 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Tangent
Take a look at how some of our congessional districts are drawn and then tell me that we're being fairly represented.

http://www.fairdistricts.com/elementals/the-capper.gif


Depends on how you look at things. If you are a dem, you think, yeah, it is drawn fine, if you are a Rep, then no, it's not fair. Whoever is in power gets to draw up their own districts. All over the country districts are being redrawn based on who is in power in each state. It is my understanding that lots of districts in Texas have recently been redrawn to benefit the Republicans. The majority will rule. It's only when the minority is completely stifled that we get a dictatorial gov't.

BTW, how did Rachel Ray's tipping habits become a political discussion?

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Old 06-30-2005, 01:14 PM   #156 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Crrink
...You do understand that the electorate has no say in how the districts are drawn, don't you...?
What I understand is that this discussion is not relevant to this forum.
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Old 06-30-2005, 01:20 PM   #157 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalusky
Maybe they SHOULD ASK THEIR BOSS FOR A RAISE.

Isnt that what we do!!!!




BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh man... that's the funniest thing I've read today.

Tell you what. Go find a waitress willing to give this a shot and see what the manager says.

I'm predicting something like:

"While you may be the best waitress in the store/area/state/world, there is no way I can give you a raise."


Why? No matter how good that server is, they can find someone to fill that spot in a day for the same pay.

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Old 06-30-2005, 01:23 PM   #158 (Print)
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Originally Posted by bicker
What I understand is that this discussion is not relevant to this forum.

Ah, you've had your say and now you're done, is that it?
OK.
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Old 06-30-2005, 02:29 PM   #159 (Print)
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Originally Posted by johnjohn
15% doesn't cut it for good service,


What does? You seem to be elusive about this.

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Old 06-30-2005, 02:30 PM   #160 (Print)
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Originally Posted by johnjohn
I've done that job too. Someone takes the time to stop the other work they're doing (tending bar, serving drinks, making coffee, etc) to get on the phone and take your order. That person has to have a full knowledge of the menu to answer your potential questions. They enter it into the order system and coordinate the food with your arrival time. They package it for you and organize it for carry out while juggling their other work. And they deserve a tip, though smaller than the one you would give for full service, closer to equal if they carry it to your car for you.


Are these people on waiters minimum-wage pay scale?

If not, and they are getting normal salary -- they then are just doing their job.

I use to work at McDonalds, and did every single thing you menitoned -- and you know what. I didn't get tipped -- because IT WAS MY JOB!

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Old 06-30-2005, 02:33 PM   #161 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Supfreak26
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Oh man... that's the funniest thing I've read today.

Tell you what. Go find a waitress willing to give this a shot and see what the manager says.

I'm predicting something like:

"While you may be the best waitress in the store/area/state/world, there is no way I can give you a raise."


Why? No matter how good that server is, they can find someone to fill that spot in a day for the same pay.


Their effectively getting paid salaries from both the customer and the establishment. So you saying its ok for the manager to say forget it but its not ok for us to say no raise (IE higher tip).

Remember the TIP is for the quality of service and not for the portion thats salary. So if they want an increase in the gratuity they are effectively saying they want a raise right? Why should the boss be immune but we should feel guilty?

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Old 06-30-2005, 03:39 PM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalusky
Their effectively getting paid salaries from both the customer and the establishment. So you saying its ok for the manager to say forget it but its not ok for us to say no raise (IE higher tip).

Remember the TIP is for the quality of service and not for the portion thats salary. So if they want an increase in the gratuity they are effectively saying they want a raise right? Why should the boss be immune but we should feel guilty?



I'm not defending the system. It is what it is. And it's not going to change soon.

When I was managing a restaurant, however, I never had a server ask for a raise. But if I did, I would've gotten a good laugh out of it and told them "sorry, can't help you." The only reason we'd pay a server more money is if they took on extra responsibilities like training, paperwork, management duties, etc. And even then it was usually only when they were actually performing those duties. The problem the server has is no leverage. They don't have a competing restaurant offering them more money and the manager can hire someone to replace them in a day if they threaten to quit. As long as the government allows restaurants to pay their servers what they do, nothing will change.

My belief is that you should tip according to the service provided. If it was good, I leave 20%. If it was average, I leave 15%. It would have to be very bad to get below 15% but I'm less picky than most. I've only stiffed a server once and that was because I had 20 different people come to my table and none of them did anything right. It was a mess.

If you feel guilty about tipping a server then that's your problem. It's obvious you have never done the job before. I gladly tip because I know how hard these people work and the money is usually not as good as you think it is. It's a stressful job. A lot of these servers have family or are working through school and I applaud those willing to go out and get their hands dirty rather than sit on thier butts and collect welfare or handouts.

Personally, I think anyone that doesn't tip 15% for average service should go to McDonald's instead. And anyone that stiffs for no reason is a deadbeat and needs a spanking.

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Old 06-30-2005, 04:21 PM   #163 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeak
Are these people on waiters minimum-wage pay scale?

If not, and they are getting normal salary -- they then are just doing their job.

I use to work at McDonalds, and did every single thing you menitoned -- and you know what. I didn't get tipped -- because IT WAS MY JOB!

ANytime you make a takeout order from a sitdown restaurant, you're taking an order from a normal, 2$ an hour waiter, who works on tips. McDonalds' salaries are not based on a tipping system.
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Old 06-30-2005, 04:30 PM   #164 (Print)
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I am tired of the "Thats the way it is" answer. Its the way it is because you can charge less and tell the server figure out another to get the rest of your salary.

Its the way it is because you and the other chains have found a way to lower your prices by not paying them real wages. Then you say get the rest of your salary from the customer its between you and him. Now your telling us its not your fault. You took advantage of the TIP concept which had nothing to do you the management.

In other country this disease has not yet infiltrated yet but its working its way in. Australia only has tips at the finest establishments and Japan still considers it an insult.

I am not offended at tipping, I am offended at management sleezy way of being competitive by appearing to have low prices when in fact its really not true.

Its like the student car wash places that say free car wash but we like $10 donations. Deception!

You guys would lower prices further by eliminating their salaries if you could but the government wouldnt go for it. Lets see you put the prices of the materials in the tip price or better yet I dare your advertised prices to include the recommended tip amount.

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Last edited by zalusky : 06-30-2005 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 06-30-2005, 04:34 PM   #165 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jradford
ANytime you make a takeout order from a sitdown restaurant, you're taking an order from a normal, 2$ an hour waiter, who works on tips. McDonalds' salaries are not based on a tipping system.



This is correct. And To-Go orders are more of a pain than actually serving someone in-house.

However, usually to-go orders are not rung up with the server's regular sales so they are not taxed on those sales. So stiffing them is not going to actually cost them money like it would if you were eating inside.

For that reason, I usually slip them a couple of bucks but I don't tip according to the amount of the check.

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Old 06-30-2005, 04:54 PM   #166 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalusky
I am tired of the "Thats the way it is" answer. Its the way it is because you can charge less and tell the server figure out another to get the rest of your salary.

Its the way it is because you and the other chains have found a way to lower your prices by not paying them real wages. Then you say get the rest of your salary from the customer its between you and him. Now your telling us its not your fault. You took advantage of the TIP concept which had nothing to do you the management.

In other country this disease has not yet infiltrated yet but its working its way in. Australia only has tips at the finest establishments and Japan still considers it an insult.

I am not offended at tipping, I am offended at management sleezy way of being competitive by appearing to have low prices when in fact its really not true.

Its like the student car wash places that say free car wash but we like $10 donations. Deception!

You guys would lower prices further by eliminating their salaries if you could but the government wouldnt go for it. Lets see you put the prices of the materials in the tip price or better yet I dare your advertised prices to include the recommended tip amount.



I see your point. And I actually agree with a lot of it.

The fact is, just like every job out there, servers are servers because they choose to be. When they are hired, they are told what their hourly wage is and they accept it knowing that they will make more than minimum wage in tips.

As for management, it's their job to make money. That's what a business is all about. It's not about flowers, fluffy clouds, and world peace. It's about money. So as long as the government is allowing them to pay servers 2 bucks an hour AND the servers are willing to work for 2 bucks an hour, then the system stays.

Would you prefer the flip-side of that? Servers getting paid min. wage. No tipping allowed. Food prices would be higher and your service would be horrible. Where's the incentive to do a great job if a big tip doesn't hang in the balance?

Or would you prefer the current setup? Lower prices and a server working hard to get a good tip.

You're going to pay relatively the same either way. Why not get good service in the process?

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Old 06-30-2005, 04:58 PM   #167 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supfreak26


Would you prefer the flip-side of that? Servers getting paid min. wage. No tipping allowed. Food prices would be higher and your service would be horrible. Where's the incentive to do a great job if a big tip doesn't hang in the balance?




Sorry to bump my own message but I thought of another added bonus to this flip-side thing...

With labor costs going through the roof under that new system, managers will be cutting waitstaff way more aggressively than they currently do. This will result in fewer waitstaff to wait on more tables which, in turn, lowers the quality of service even further.

Sorry but the current system works. No need to change it.

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Old 06-30-2005, 05:12 PM   #168 (Print)
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Bogus - labor costs are the same. We pay the same amount as customers.

We just pay some to the shop and some to the waitress.
In most cases the tip is pooled anyways and its gets evenly divided. So infact its just salary off the books.

And as I said management simply gets to advertise lower costs.

I am not saying doing away with tips but the realistic part of the current gratuity that reflects a tip and is not a salary substitute is much lower probably the original 5% value.

And because its pooled its somewhat muted impact anyways. The reason it became pooled was to subsitute for salary and it allows them to nuke salaries on back office like dishwashers as well and give them a part of the pool.

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Old 06-30-2005, 05:14 PM   #169 (Print)
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Quote:
Where's the incentive to do a great job if a big tip doesn't hang in the balance?


Keeping the job? If the job pays more it will attract more people, therefore incompetent people are more easily replaced.

Quote:
With labor costs going through the roof under that new system, managers will be cutting waitstaff way more aggressively than they currently do. This will result in fewer waitstaff to wait on more tables which, in turn, lowers the quality of service even further.


That would pretty much be shooting yourself in the foot. When you lower the quality of service you lose customers. There are already a few restaurants I refuse to go back to because the service sucked.

What you need to make a no tipping system work is good management. A good manager is willing and able to get rid of sub-standard employees instead of taking the easy route and letting them stay on despite their poor performance. This really is no different than the tipping system in place now. Some restaurants have excellent wait staff while others are hard to find and surly at best. With the exception of the nothing-else-for-50-miles places, the ones with lousy service are usually empty and the ones with the great staff are packed. It's pretty self-balancing in the end...
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Old 06-30-2005, 05:27 PM   #170 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalusky
Bogus - labor costs are the same. We pay the same amount as customers.

We just pay some to the shop and some to the waitress.
In most cases the tip is pooled anyways and its gets evenly divided. So infact its just salary off the books.

And as I said management simply gets to advertise lower costs.




Seriously. Labor costs would go through the roof. As will the price of meals to the customer.

As a manager managing labor is one of the hardest things to do. This would be disastrous.

So you'll basically pay the same for worse service.

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Old 06-30-2005, 05:44 PM   #171 (Print)
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What your referring to is the fact that its off the books. So you can escape matching social security, unemployment, and other benefits. Which again hurts the wait staff and benefits you the management. It also hurts us as taxpayers eventually.

All gimmicks we like to use with immigrant labor.

Another reason I dont like the system, thank you very much.

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Last edited by zalusky : 06-30-2005 at 05:53 PM.
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Old 06-30-2005, 06:13 PM   #172 (Print)
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Originally Posted by zalusky
What your referring to is the fact that its off the books. So you can escape matching social security, unemployment, and other benefits. Which again hurts the wait staff and benefits you the management. It also hurts us as taxpayers eventually


Ridiculous. If a wage structure has the blessing the IRS and Dept. of Labor, it is silly to think it is "escaping" taxes or charges. Just silly. As is the comment about "hurting" the wait staff, and "benefitting" the management. Well, your employer is hurting you and benefitting themselves, and "escaping" taxes and benefits, by not doubling your salary. As a taxpayer, I am outraged!
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Old 06-30-2005, 06:40 PM   #173 (Print)
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Originally Posted by bicker
I don't doubt that there is gerrymandering. I doubt that it is anything other than a reflection of the wishes of the electorate.



You haven't been following Texas politics, have you?
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Old 06-30-2005, 07:04 PM   #174 (Print)
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What the hell happened to my thread?
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Old 06-30-2005, 07:23 PM   #175 (Print)
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I'm sorry, but if you're happy with your service, you should not be tipping 15%. I'd be embarrased to leave so little.

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Old 07-01-2005, 03:04 AM   #176 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Supfreak26
So you'll basically pay the same for worse service.
I'm not so sure that it would be that bad (though it could be). At the very least, even if you end up paying, overall, the same for the same service, you'll be paying the same for each meal regardless of whether that specific meal was a particularly good experience or a particularly bad experience.
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Old 07-01-2005, 06:20 AM   #177 (Print)
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Originally Posted by zaknafein
I'm sorry, but if you're happy with your service, you should not be tipping 15%. I'd be embarrased to leave so little.


Again, a conclusory statement that contradicts the generally accepted tipping standards, that has no fact or reason behind it.

Of course, many people who are "embarassed" to not leave a large tip are doing it to put on a show for themselves and their companions.
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Old 07-01-2005, 07:14 AM   #178 (Print)
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Originally Posted by heyitscory
Don't get me started on what a ***** Rachel Ray is.

She's an obnoxious, sexist and vaccuous person.

Geez, what woman ruined your life? Rachael is an awesome chick. I'd love to sit down and chug a few beers with her.

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Old 07-01-2005, 07:29 AM   #179 (Print)
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Originally Posted by footballdude
I don't understand why the waiter is supposed to get a tip at all. The only person in that resteraunt doing hard work is the person that actually prepares the food. That person doesn't get any tips. Most of the time I go out to eat, I see the waiter when I first get there, when they bring some drinks, and when the food arrives. Most of the time I have to flag them down if I'd like another drink or when I want the check. How is that worth 15% (especially since people think 15% is crap?).

No one comes to a resteraunt because they want someone to carry a plate from one side of a room to the other. They come because of how the food is prepared.

NOTE: This is coming from someone who isn't in the industry!
Servers (bartenders, also) are traditionally paid well below minimum wage, usually just above $2/hour for servers. They work for tips. Not only do they take your orders, but they do fetch your drinks, refill them, bring your food, clear your tables and also take your compliments and complaints which are far more plentiful. Plus, they calculate your check, have to keep track of everything that you ordered plus everyone else's orders at their other tables and handle your credit cards and/or cash. Plus, after you leave, good servers make sure the mess you make at the table is cleaned up so someone else can come in and complain about the food and/or service. It's quite a busy job!
The person(s) preparing your food are paid guaranteed salary (usually above minimum wage, depending on the establishment) and don't work for tips.
Tip your good servers well, and let those who do a sub-par job know! Especially in a place you frequent.

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Old 07-01-2005, 08:03 AM   #180 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Turtleboy
What the hell happened to my thread?



This is what happens when you don't tip the moderators.

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