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Old 08-08-2005, 05:08 PM   #151 (Print)
questfortruth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chewbaccad
There are only 12 Cylon models... but does that mean in the fleet or overall? There's a loophole for the writers If we already know of 4 of them, it would make sense that 8 are left in the fleet. As we've seen from 6's previous escapade, they seem capable of inserting them or activating them at will.


Why are there only 12 Spylon models? Is it a stupid reason- "one for each colony"- or is it because the Cylons could only manufacture the 12?

Why not have 100? Or 1000?

They can make a seemingly-endless number of copies of each of the 12, but no more original models.

The answer probably has something to do, with why the Cylons are so concerned with getting their Spylon females pregnant.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:12 PM   #152 (Print)
akaye
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Originally Posted by madscientist
Not that it matters, but that's not quite right. Starbuck asked how many points Anders scored. He said 3. Starbuck said that's wrong, it was 4--and she looked like she was about to shoot. Anders said, no, the last one was called back. Then Helo said that's right; he (Helo) had lost a lot of money on that game.



It matters even less, but it wasn't points, it was fouls.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:17 PM   #153 (Print)
TAsunder
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Originally Posted by questfortruth
Why are there only 12 Spylon models? Is it a stupid reason- "one for each colony"- or is it because the Cylons could only manufacture the 12?

Why not have 100? Or 1000?

They can make a seemingly-endless number of copies of each of the 12, but no more original models.

The answer probably has something to do, with why the Cylons are so concerned with getting their Spylon females pregnant.


I think it's a dogmatic reason for 12, so one for each colony type thing, yes. We don't know for sure, but it does seem like it had to be part of their reasoning/faith/plan because it is illogical to think they could only come up with 12 models.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:22 PM   #154 (Print)
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Originally Posted by ihatecable
What if all the human cylons models are really based on actual humans which are genetically enhanced? If you accept that premise what if Ellen is not another model but Six is a genetically enhanced version of the Ellen.


Does that mean there is "not as hot" version of Boomer that I might have a chance at? Kind of like the ugly sister.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:23 PM   #155 (Print)
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Originally Posted by TAsunder
We don't know for sure, but it does seem like it had to be part of their reasoning/faith/plan because it is illogical to think they could only come up with 12 models.


Illogical? Pick a number...what makes it illogical/logical? Since we know nothing about Cylons other than what we've been told, what logic applies? How about this logic: it's only been a few decades since all cylons were toasters built by humans...it's AMAZING that they've developed even ONE undetectable human simulation, much less multiple copies of 12!! Why aren't there only 1? Or 2? Pick a number.

I DO think 12 may turn out to be significant in some way, but that's the writers art, not logic, right?

Last edited by akaye : 08-08-2005 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:36 PM   #156 (Print)
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Originally Posted by whitson77
I liked it except for the Starbuck sport scene. That made my weiner angry.
ROTFLMAO

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Old 08-08-2005, 05:50 PM   #157 (Print)
madscientist
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Originally Posted by akaye
It matters even less, but it wasn't points, it was fouls.
Are you sure? I don't think it was. That doesn't make sense to me in the context of the conversation. They might have said "goals" though. I have it on TiVo at home I think. I'll check if I remember. Just because I'm a geek!

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Old 08-08-2005, 06:14 PM   #158 (Print)
akaye
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Originally Posted by madscientist
Are you sure? I don't think it was. That doesn't make sense to me in the context of the conversation. They might have said "goals" though. I have it on TiVo at home I think. I'll check if I remember. Just because I'm a geek!


Hmm. I could have misheard "goals" as "fouls". That does make more sense. I remeber THINKING she said 'fouls' because I said to myself "wow, what an odd stat to ask for..."

Please let me know what you find out! And check the close captioning...it's often so bad, I wouldn't be suprised if it said "fouls" even if she didn't say it.
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Old 08-08-2005, 06:46 PM   #159 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Anubys
Adama might have lost control of the 12 representatives, but he would've done it more slowly...

there is no way Adama can maintain control of his troops at this point...half of them will fight for the president...and he didn't have enough to start with...
One specific thing that Adama might have done differently, something that should have been done differently, is handling the refusal to resupply.

I'm talking at the tactical level. Assuming that Adama would also have needed to force the issue, there really wasn't any need to hit all the ships at once. They weren't really in a position to support each other.

Given the lack of marine non-coms to control the boarding parties, you'd have been better making larger boarding parties under the control of those non-coms. That gives you better trained leadership and hopefully enough people to do riot control without resorting to guns. Enough people to hold the crowd back so you don't have stuff flying from all directions.

That most likely would have prevented the shooting incident, and wouldn't have slowed the response all that much.

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Old 08-08-2005, 06:55 PM   #160 (Print)
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I, too, was thinking about the marine boarding parties all striking in unison? Why? Why not hit the first ship to show force? Maybe the rest would cave? I think it's just the writers showing how Tigh is not a good commander.

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Old 08-08-2005, 07:13 PM   #161 (Print)
Anubys
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Originally Posted by jwjody
I understand the stances of Anubis and Rob about the coup. I'm slightly leaning toward Rob's view on it though.

But let's say her presidency is valid. Let's say she was even the ORIGINAL president. Then her actions by ordering the pilot to take the Cylon plane put the rest of the fleet at risk. Even the legitimate president might be booted by their version of congress for that.


Got the name wrong and picked the wrong side of the argument...not a good post

The president didn't believe for a long time...she is slowly "converting" and is becoming obsessed...this is still a pretty deeply religious group of people (or we have not seen much of the non-believer side)...they are desperate and will cling to any hope...Adama already told them Earth existed, he can't deny it now...

Adama is stuck...I can't wait to see how he'll get out of this mess...

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Old 08-08-2005, 07:46 PM   #162 (Print)
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Did anyone else thouroughly enjoy Six's comments to Baltar as he was talking to the assasinator chick? "Toaster is a racist comment", "Do you realize your unborn child is part toaster".

I found myself laughing through that dialog.... am I going to hell?

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Old 08-08-2005, 09:02 PM   #163 (Print)
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Is it really a "messiah" complex?

People keep getting agitated by Roslin and her growing "Jesus" or "messiah" complex, but is that really what it is? She seems much more akin to an old testament character to me--Moses, Jacob, etc. I'm hardly a biblical scholar or snob, but before we get too mad at the character, let's at least keep it straight what exactly she's beginning to believe about herself
  • She believes she is supposed to lead mankind to Earth.
  • She does NOT believe that she is God or the child of God.
  • Her death is NOT a sacrifice for mankind.
  • Her impending death is NOT necessary for her to fulfill the prophecy but is simply one aspect of the prophecy.
  • Christ came to earth to eventually sacrifice himself to allow men (and women) to find salvation.
  • Roslin's goal is to lead mankind to Earth, which is far more akin to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

Just my opinion... Add that and another couple bucks and you might be able to get a cup of coffee.
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Old 08-08-2005, 09:22 PM   #164 (Print)
latrobe7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgewin
People keep getting agitated by Roslin and her growing "Jesus" or "messiah" complex, but is that really what it is? She seems much more akin to an old testament character to me--Moses, Jacob, etc. I'm hardly a biblical scholar or snob, but before we get too mad at the character, let's at least keep it straight what exactly she's beginning to believe about herself
  • She believes she is supposed to lead mankind to Earth.
  • She does NOT believe that she is God or the child of God.
  • Her death is NOT a sacrifice for mankind.
  • Her impending death is NOT necessary for her to fulfill the prophecy but is simply one aspect of the prophecy.
  • Christ came to earth to eventually sacrifice himself to allow men (and women) to find salvation.
  • Roslin's goal is to lead mankind to Earth, which is far more akin to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt.

Just my opinion... Add that and another couple bucks and you might be able to get a cup of coffee.


One entry found for messiah.

Main Entry: mesˇsiˇah
Pronunciation: m&-'sI-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Hebrew mAshIah & Aramaic meshIhA, literally, anointed
1 capitalized a : the expected king and deliverer of the Jews b : JESUS 1
2 : a professed or accepted leader of some hope or cause
- mesˇsiˇahˇship /-"ship/ noun
from:http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictiona...essiah&x=9&y=15




What you are describing is Jesus specifically, not a general messiah.

I agree that Roslin does not think she is Jesus Christ
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Old 08-08-2005, 09:22 PM   #165 (Print)
akaye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgewin
People keep getting agitated by Roslin and her growing "Jesus" or "messiah" complex, but is that really what it is?


Think Jewish, not Christian. "An expected deliverer to salvation" is exactly what "messiah" means (well, not literally...it means "annointed one" but 'expected deliverer' is who it refers to) and that is EXACTLY what Laura believes she is.

"Messiah complex" though, usually refers to a mental disorder. It may be that Laura really IS their expected deliverer. Would a Christian say that Jesus of Nazareth had a "Messiah complex?"

Once again I'm reminded of a Star Trek episode. A late DS9 epsiode:

Vorta: These Bajorans think the wormhole aliens are gods....what silly superstition.
Cardassian: How is it any different from you and your Founders?
Vorta: (sternly) Thats different. The Founders ARE gods.

EDIT: Latrobe, that's just spooky.
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Old 08-08-2005, 10:06 PM   #166 (Print)
FauxPas
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Originally Posted by akaye
It matters even less, but it wasn't points, it was fouls.

I just checked the closed captions, you're right, it was foul breaks:

Starbuck: How many foul breaks did you have in the playoff against Aerilon?
...
Anders: Three.
S: Wrong. Four.
A: Three. Last one was called back on instant replay.
Helo: He's right Starbuck. I lost 20 cubits on that game.
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:12 AM   #167 (Print)
Anubys
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Originally Posted by MassD

People need to remember that the Colonial government is not the United States government... so what applies here doesn't apply there...


gee...thanks for the reminder

sorry about the sarcasm...but we're not stupid...we're not projecting what we know of the U.S. government (there are a lot of other types of governments out there, you know) onto the colonial government...however, the writers went to great length during the mini to establish that the chain of command as far as the president of the colonies and the military is pretty much the same as that of the POTUS...

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Old 08-09-2005, 06:51 AM   #168 (Print)
Rob Helmerichs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubys
sorry about the sarcasm...but we're not stupid...we're not projecting what we know of the U.S. government (there are a lot of other types of governments out there, you know) onto the colonial government...however, the writers went to great length during the mini to establish that the chain of command as far as the president of the colonies and the military is pretty much the same as that of the POTUS...

True, but chain of command implies CHAIN of command. I suspect if the President of the US told an air force captain to fly a plane to Bosnia that was needed for a mission in Iraq, there would be consequences...

And, of course, this is NOT the Colonial government. This is an ad hoc arrangement, pending elections, under which Roslin has NO military authority whatsoever.

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Old 08-09-2005, 07:09 AM   #169 (Print)
Anubys
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all's I know's what I see

We had one pilot (Apollo) getting a direct order from his commander (Adama) and the pilot refused to obey the order because he received an contradicting order from the Colonial President (Roslin).

so while in the U.S., maybe even the president has to obey the chain of command (that's debatable, but I'm willing to concede the point), we know that is not true for the Colonial Government.

as for the other comment about the the ad-hoc government, nothing in how the fleet carried out the following weeks (other than the side and SECRET arrangement between Adama and Roslin) indicates that anyone thought that the government was not legitimate or ad-hoc...the only person who said anything about that is Zarich, and he's looked at as a revolutionary...and he opposed the government for exactly the opposite of what you state: he opposed the government because it WAS operating as usual!

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Old 08-09-2005, 07:18 AM   #170 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubys
We had one pilot (Apollo) getting a direct order from his commander (Adama) and the pilot refused to obey the order because he received an contradicting order from the Colonial President (Roslin).

Is this what you're basing it on? I thought the mini established the opposite of our regime - that the Prez has *no* control over the military.

And what Apollo did was what first created a schism between him and his father. He went against military orders because of his ideals, not because of a chain of command.

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Old 08-09-2005, 08:00 AM   #171 (Print)
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Originally Posted by IndyJones1023
Is this what you're basing it on? I thought the mini established the opposite of our regime - that the Prez has *no* control over the military.

There seem to be two schools of thought about this. The correct school is that the Colonial Government died with the Colonies, and that Adama and Roslin constituted a new ad hoc government, based upon but not identical to the Colonial Government, later amended to be pending elections which would seat a permanent government.

The wrong school believes that somehow the Colonial Government, despite being almost entirely wiped out by the Cylon attack and despite having almost nobody and nothing eft (no military command structure, no civilian administration, no infrastructure, etc.), miraculously survived intact, and now is running just as it did in the Colonies.

I suspect some people might phrase all this slightly differently...

But you are right, in the miniseries it was pretty clearly established that this is NOT (at least not yet) the Colonial Government, that things are going to be done differently--and Roslin agreed to that, and then violated the agreement, thus triggering all the problems we've been seeing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyJones1023
And what Apollo did was what first created a schism between him and his father. He went against military orders because of his ideals, not because of a chain of command.

You may be too kind to Lee here--I think what he did may have been less out of ideals and more out of Daddy issues...

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Old 08-09-2005, 08:12 AM   #172 (Print)
Anubys
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Originally Posted by IndyJones1023
Is this what you're basing it on? I thought the mini established the opposite of our regime - that the Prez has *no* control over the military.


not at all...even Adama was miffed that there was a president there to counteract his commands...his beef has always been that this is a dire military situation better left to military command (imagine that!)...

once they were on ragnar, Lee negotiated with Tigh for medical supplies (or whatever) for the fleet...even Tigh admitted that he has to obey the president...

None of the people denied that the president has the authority and final say...NONE...what they did was disagree that the 43rd person down who magically became president because 42 other people died is qualified to lead in a clearly military situation...

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Old 08-09-2005, 08:16 AM   #173 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs

But you are right, in the miniseries it was pretty clearly established that this is NOT (at least not yet) the Colonial Government, that things are going to be done differently--and Roslin agreed to that, and then violated the agreement, thus triggering all the problems we've been seeing.


I'm not disagreeing with you about any of this...I actually agree that this is true...I'm simply pointing out that the other point of view is:

1. legitimate.
2. probably the point of view of the majority of the 47,000+ people in the fleet. Remember, until Zarich made a fuss, they weren't even going to have an election...

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Old 08-09-2005, 08:30 AM   #174 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Anubys
not at all...even Adama was miffed that there was a president there to counteract his commands...his beef has always been that this is a dire military situation better left to military command (imagine that!)...

once they were on ragnar, Lee negotiated with Tigh for medical supplies (or whatever) for the fleet...even Tigh admitted that he has to obey the president...

None of the people denied that the president has the authority and final say...NONE...what they did was disagree that the 43rd person down who magically became president because 42 other people died is qualified to lead in a clearly military situation...


I agree.. this clearly IS the colonial governement...the colonies are the people, not the places, and they were not destroyed, just serious reduced in number. The disagreement is whether it is still actualyl viabale, or will it just get them all killed.

BTW, the respect for the chain of command (in our system, and I assume that if the writers didn't want us drawing parellels, they wouldn't have made the Colonial system so similar) needs to go PRECISELY in ONE direction: UP. If I, as a enslisted person, want to take an issue up the chain, I had BETTER go first to my LPO or chief, then if needed to my division officer, the XO the CO, etc. or I will feel the wrath of those I steped over. It does NOT work the other way, by regulation nor tradition. If the CO or the POTUS gives me a lawful order, I am to follow it. Period. It is the senior's privedge to delegate authority down the chain, but he is not obligated to do so.

Oddly enough, right before watching this episode last night, I discussed this very thing with some of our officers. There was some question about the use of judgment if an enlisted person is given and order by a junior officer outside of his chain of command that conflicts with a previous order by a senior officer IN his chain of command, but there is NO question about the vice-versa. If an ensign says "don't let anyone in this room" and the President says "let me in" you inform the President of the conflicting order and if he still wants in, you let him in.
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Old 08-09-2005, 08:56 AM   #175 (Print)
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I think what Lee did was morally correct, regardless of daddy issues. He diffused a volatile situation. He may have actually agreed that Roslin did wrong, but he did not agree that violent means was the solution. That seemed to be the gist of what he said.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:03 AM   #176 (Print)
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Lee is following the rules and laws as they were before the war...since the president had the authority to give orders to Starbuck and has the authority to ignore Adama's wishes, she did nothing wrong...

this is why he supported Roslin during the "coup" and this is why he is supporting her now...the military obeys the president...that is what Lee is doing...

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Old 08-09-2005, 09:04 AM   #177 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akaye
BTW, the respect for the chain of command (in our system, and I assume that if the writers didn't want us drawing parellels, they wouldn't have made the Colonial system so similar) needs to go PRECISELY in ONE direction: UP. If I, as a enslisted person, want to take an issue up the chain, I had BETTER go first to my LPO or chief, then if needed to my division officer, the XO the CO, etc. or I will feel the wrath of those I steped over. It does NOT work the other way, by regulation nor tradition. If the CO or the POTUS gives me a lawful order, I am to follow it. Period. It is the senior's privedge to delegate authority down the chain, but he is not obligated to do so.

I understand that, but my point is that if the President intervened in the chain of command, ordering a way-down subordinate to take an action that would screw up an operation in the middle of a war, there would be consequences--probably resignations from people high in the chain of command who don't want to be blamed for losing the war when they have no control over the fine details of how it is to be fought, and certainly a massive loss of confidence in the CiC. There's more than one reason why presidents have always left the details of military operations to the military.

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Old 08-09-2005, 09:06 AM   #178 (Print)
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Adama simply needs to say one line to let you know he's back in charge. Great stuff.

I was thinking that despite the cheif being shot down (with the others) being shot at, being shot, and shooting out the missile navigation dish, he's still treated like crap. Really, if you're part of the fleet, it doesn't matter if you're having a bad day. Everyone else is too. Talk about pushing people to their limits.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:11 AM   #179 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
I understand that, but my point is that if the President intervened in the chain of command, ordering a way-down subordinate to take an action that would screw up an operation in the middle of a war, there would be consequences--probably resignations from people high in the chain of command who don't want to be blamed for losing the war when they have no control over the fine details of how it is to be fought, and certainly a massive loss of confidence in the CiC. There's more than one reason why presidents have always left the details of military operations to the military.


Right, but if it screws up an operation, but results in WINNING the war, or saving the human race, they'll probably keep their jobs. The President making big picture decisions against the advice of military commanders can go both ways. Which way will Roslin's actions go? I guess that's the 64000 cubit question...I'm on her side for now.
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Old 08-09-2005, 09:14 AM   #180 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs
There's more than one reason why presidents have always left the details of military operations to the military.


One of the biggest issues for the military in Viet Nam was frag orders coming down directly from the White House dictating what approaches to targets were to be used, what ordnance was to be dropped, and other highly restrictive rules of engagement. The government was trying to "send a message" to the enemy with how the war was being waged, but instead these orders caused a LOT of unnecessary losses among air crews resulting in far more prisoners and deaths than should have been.

It's the commander-in-chief's job to set the objective, then let the professional military determine the best method to achieve that objective.
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