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Old 08-11-2005, 01:42 PM   #31 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by timr_42
I don't think so. unless he signed a NDA then he can talk all about it all he wants. The idea that it came from a beta tester is just that, an idea. It is a good guess as that is most likely the way the info was leaked. I would look at this is an integrity issue if it was a beta. They are not suppose to talk to ANYONE about these types of things.

Now I think it is a cool addition, but if I were a beta, it would be wrong for me to talk about it.


There was a recent 'NDA indiscretion' relating to the XBOX 360 where someone's son supposedly posted a picture of himself playing with the new console onto the internet and that was widely interpreted as a nifty bit of viral marketing by Microsoft.

Also, the timing of this is to put it mildly a little 'coincidental' wouldn't you agree (I'm referring to the DirecTV announcement)?

If you signed an NDA and a member of your family went and posted pictures like those published would you then spend the rest of your life agonizing about how you 'sold your integrity' (as stated by another poster in this thread)?

Personally I would say this 'leak' is an obvious boost to TiVo - just think of the free publicity generated by the more trigger happy and sanctimonious posters of this board and others screaming about it (in two inch letters) all over the internet.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:03 PM   #32 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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The sold their integrity for a thrill and a fleeting sense of self importance.

Period.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:06 PM   #33 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
The sold their integrity for a thrill and a fleeting sense of self importance.

Period.


So what do you do it for?

I guess by now you will have gouged your own eyes out after accidentally seeing those pictures and will spend the rest of your life chastising yourself for taking part in an act of integrity-selling.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:21 PM   #34 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Originally Posted by piper
others screaming about it (in two inch letters) all over the internet.


if you mean one post in this thread as all over the internet then I assume you mean me.

I will point out my post was specifically if someone signed an NDA they should honor it. No mention of sons or viral marketing or such. Just simply that if a person did knowingly break an NDA they should rethink their ethics and feel dishonor for breaking their word. If their was more feeling of honor and that breaking your word was dishonorable in this world the business and sports section might be distguinishable from the police blotter section of the paper again.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:35 PM   #35 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
yes I jumped on the NDA part but I really do not know if an NDA was involved or not, just covering that base in case it was.


Unfortunately this may be another example of TiVo releasing something with out communicating about it. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. However for me the general feel about this is that it was proprietary info released to the press.

Hopefully though TiVo won't follow in Apples footsteps and try to suppress the web site making the report if the dude that released it is the one that broke an agreement.

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Old 08-11-2005, 02:36 PM   #36 (Print)
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Originally Posted by piper
So what do you do it for?

I guess by now you will have gouged your own eyes out after accidentally seeing those pictures and will spend the rest of your life chastising yourself for taking part in an act of integrity-selling.
Why are you defending the scumbag who did this? And who is being hypocrytical? If you are going to do a business deal with someone, do you put people at the top of your list the ones for whom their word and honour mean nothing?

Right. Feel free to going around screwing people all your life. See what hell you will make for yourself.

Your choice.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:41 PM   #37 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
if you mean one post in this thread as all over the internet then I assume you mean me.

I will point out my post was specifically if someone signed an NDA they should honor it. No mention of sons or viral marketing or such. Just simply that if a person did knowingly break an NDA they should rethink their ethics and feel dishonor for breaking their word. If their was more feeling of honor and that breaking your word was dishonorable in this world the business and sports section might be distguinishable from the police blotter section of the paper again.


I was talking about a general reaction.

Personally I would never break the terms of an NDA and if I thought there was a chance of me doing so would never sign one in the first place. Even if this NDA disclosure shock horror turns out to be true for all you know the person who did it did so out of loyalty for TiVo in the face of today's problems. Where does your view of honour fit into that?

I think people should think things through before trashing others on this board.

Nobody in this thread knows where the pictures came from and why they were released the same day as the DirecTV announcement and getting hysterical and accusatory about it doesn't really make things better. Maybe those that do these things while talking about 'ethics' and 'honour' should think twice before grabbing a handful of stones and lobbing them.
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Old 08-11-2005, 02:42 PM   #38 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Why are you defending the scumbag who did this? And who is being hypocrytical? If you are going to do a business deal with someone, do you put people at the top of your list the ones for whom their word and honour mean nothing?

Right. Feel free to going around screwing people all your life. See what hell you will make for yourself.

Your choice.


Calm down.

Think things through.

Stop being abusive.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:08 PM   #39 (Print)
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I GUARANTEE you, no matter who released these photos, TiVo is thrilled about the free publicity. If they didn't want a feature publicized, they wouldn't release it to the beta testers. You think TiVo never heard of things like digital cameras and blogs? They've already publicly announced that this feature will be rolled out this Fall. How else are they going to publicize it? Seen any TiVo commercials lately? Press releases, as a rule, are boring and won't get as much coverage as "leaks".
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:36 PM   #40 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piper
...you know the person who did it did so out of loyalty for TiVo in the face of today's problems. Where does your view of honour fit into that?

I think people should think things through before trashing others on this board.
It's nothing new. History is filled with stories on how people chose to break their word- they always have some pretty lie they tell themselves.

If you would never betray your honour, I salute you for that. It is a difficult thing sometimes to go through with commitments.

As for trashing- they trashed themselves. Their choice. They saw a choice between honor and the opportunity to be a big man.

They chose the latter, and got neither.

Not only did they demonstrate their true character, they demonstrated their shear cunning at being able to arrive at such a remarkable bargain.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:46 PM   #41 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
It's nothing new. History is filled with stories on how people chose to break their word- they always have some pretty lie they tell themselves.

If you would never betray your honour, I salute you for that. It is a difficult thing sometimes to go through with commitments.

As for trashing- they trashed themselves. Their choice. They saw a choice between honor and the opportunity to be a big man.

They chose the latter, and got neither.

Not only did they demonstrate their true character, they demonstrated their shear cunning at being able to arrive at such a remarkable bargain.


So far nobody knows the full information about this particular situation and people are jumping to conclusions.

Apart from anything else the pictures were posted anonymously (I'm assuming) so how this person would be making himself into a 'big man' is a little unclear.

Its all seems a bit too coincidental to me but either way I don't really see it as that big of a deal since the software release is apparently imminent anyway. It's
not like secrets of TiVo's future strategy stretching years or even months have been leaked.

And let's face it...are you really THAT upset at getting a sneak peek? I know I can't wait for this to become available to everyone.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:46 PM   #42 (Print)
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Originally Posted by schtum
I GUARANTEE you, no matter who released these photos, TiVo is thrilled about the free publicity. If they didn't want a feature publicized, they wouldn't release it to the beta testers.

That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Tivo (and other companies that do betas with outside testers) release software to beta testers to they can beta test it. NOT so they can function as secret sources to the press. The NDAs you accept to be a beta tester and the agreement to keep your mouth shut is not a "wink wink" kind of thing.

In fact I'd GUARANTEE you that Tivo will try and find out where this info came from, and they won't be a beta tester again.
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:54 PM   #43 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piper
And let's face it...are you really THAT upset at getting a sneak peek? I know I can't wait for this to become available to everyone.

This isn't about the sneak peek, it's about one moron who's already in the beta possibly making it harder for others to get in it by demonstrating to Tivo that some people can't keep their damned (and legally binding, BTW) word.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:05 PM   #44 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piper
I don't really see it as that big of a deal since ...[fill in the rationalization].
Right. You don't see that keeping your word is a big deal.

Perhaps you will feel differently when it is someone else trivializing obligations to you. Then it will be a big deal to you.

It's a scumbag way to run your life- but if you see advantages to walking on that side of the street, don't whine about the refreshing atmosphere of daily mutual betrayal that will greet you there.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:10 PM   #45 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by DrStrange
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Tivo (and other companies that do betas with outside testers) release software to beta testers to they can beta test it. NOT so they can function as secret sources to the press. The NDAs you accept to be a beta tester and the agreement to keep your mouth shut is not a "wink wink" kind of thing.

In fact I'd GUARANTEE you that Tivo will try and find out where this info came from, and they won't be a beta tester again.


Yes but you are assuming the leak came from a Beta tester. It probably did but I don't know why you would work yourself up to be angry about it before even finding out the facts.

Also, the initial release of the 7.x software in January, let's face it, should have been labelled what it really was: a beta test or at least a limited rushed release that was expected (as far as I can tell) to have resulted in the flushing out of bugs before the final/real release.

This current beta test seems to me to be what the original 7.x release should have been. The software is basically finished and ready for release but this phase seems to be an effort by TiVo to avoid the problems and bad feelings generated earlier this year.

A TiVo representative has even posted on this board saying that the release is only weeks away. The whole thing is a phenomenal storm in a teacup and personally I would rather look forward to this additional functionality being made available on my own TiVo.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:15 PM   #46 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Right. You don't see that keeping your word is a big deal.

Perhaps you will feel differently when it is someone else trivializing obligations to you. Then it will be a big deal to you.

It's a scumbag way to run your life- but if you see advantages to walking on that side of the street, don't whine about the refreshing atmosphere of daily mutual betrayal that will greet you there.


You have got problems and that's as far as being drawn into your obnoxious approach to communicating as I am going to go before asking the moderators of this board to remind you of the terms and conditions relating to posting here.

In an ideal world you would apologise for stooping so low as to inform me that I run my life in a 'scumbag way'. I've given you enough warnings to cool off - why won't you take notice of them?

If you are (inexplicably) too wound up to communicate in a civil way then please do me the courtesy of ignoring what I post and stop trying to antagonize me.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:24 PM   #47 (Print)
piper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Right. You don't see that keeping your word is a big deal.

Perhaps you will feel differently when it is someone else trivializing obligations to you. Then it will be a big deal to you.

It's a scumbag way to run your life- but if you see advantages to walking on that side of the street, don't whine about the refreshing atmosphere of daily mutual betrayal that will greet you there.


And while I'm at it: if you are gong to quote someone's posts DO NOT ALTER WHAT THEY WROTE IN AN EFFORT TO MISREPRESENT THEM.

You could do yourself a favour and acquaint yourself with the rules of etiquette in relation to internet posting.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:39 PM   #48 (Print)
DrStrange
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Originally Posted by piper
Yes but you are assuming the leak came from a Beta tester. It probably did but I don't know why you would work yourself up to be angry about it before even finding out the facts.

I am assuming that, but that's beside the point of the text you quoted. I was replying to someone who said that even it did come from a beta tester, Tivo would be pleased by the leak, and wouldn't run betas if they didn't want things leaked. That's just beyond stupid, and was what the bulk of that post was aimed at.

And if it probably come from a beta tester I don't know why you're expending so much effort arguing the lesser possibility that that it may not have, especially since your "Tivo leaked it" theory has no support at all beyond your own weak speculation.
Quote:
A TiVo representative has even posted on this board saying that the release is only weeks away. The whole thing is a phenomenal storm in a teacup and personally I would rather look forward to this additional functionality being made available on my own TiVo.

Me too, but I'd also like to get it sooner via the public betas (both this release and future ones, so it's not just about this release) that aren't being helped by idiotic NDA violators. You don't want to be in a beta, fine. You'll get the software when you get it with everyone else. You aren't affected at all by this, so why are you defending flimsy theories and unlikely possibilities to people who are?

Last edited by DrStrange : 08-11-2005 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 08-11-2005, 04:49 PM   #49 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Originally Posted by piper
You could do yourself a favour and acquaint yourself with the rules of etiquette in relation to internet posting.
I was merely trying to acquaint you with the rules of honor, which you seem to have little regard for.

If you don't think it is a big deal that people keep their word, that speaks for for itself.
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:00 PM   #50 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by DrStrange
I am assuming that, but that's beside the point of the text you quoted. I was replying to someone who said that even it did come from a beta tester, Tivo would be pleased by the leak, and wouldn't run betas if they didn't want things leaked. That's just beyond stupid, and was what the bulk of that post was aimed at.

And if it probably come from a beta tester I don't know why you're expending so much effort arguing the lesser possibility that that it may not have, especially since your "Tivo leaked it" theory has no support at all beyond your own weak speculation.

Me too, but I'd also like to get it sooner via the public betas (both this release and future ones, so it's not just about this release) that aren't being helped by idiotic NDA violators. You don't want to be in a beta, fine. You'll get the software when you get it with everyone else. You aren't affected at all by this, so why are you defending flimsy theories and unlikely possibilities to people who are?


Why are you attributing this 'TiVo leaked it theory' to me? Its this kind of thing that sparks flaming. You don't strengthen your own arguments by misquoting people you just become exponentially more annoying (which, let's face it you seem to get off on - not that I'm complaining).

I would just like to point out that there is a marketing technique known as 'viral marketing' (look it up if you are unfamiliar with it). I'm not saying this is an example of it.

I would also like to point out that people are jumping to conclusions about this leak.

And I would also like to point out that making unfounded judgments and obnoxious statements about people before the facts are fully known is not very smart.

I'm not defending any flimsy theories! I'm just pointing out for the nth time that jumping to conclusions and being cringe-makingly sanctimonious about it might make people feel better about themselves in the short term but isn't really the right approach to things under normal circumstances.
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Old 08-11-2005, 05:03 PM   #51 (Print)
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That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


Quote:
Right. You don't see that keeping your word is a big deal.



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It's a scumbag way to run your life- but if you see advantages to walking on that side of the street, don't whine about the refreshing atmosphere of daily mutual betrayal that will greet you there.


Comments such as the above are considered personal attacks, and are not allowed on this board. Newbies, please read the rules and guidelines sticky at the top of the Happy Hour forum for clarification of the rules.

Anybody who persistantly flames another member will be banned from the forum. If comments such as these appear below my post, the thread will be closed and the people continuing the flame will be temporarily banned from the forum.

Thank you for your cooperation.

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Old 08-11-2005, 05:05 PM   #52 (Print)
piper
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
I was merely trying to acquaint you with the rules of honor, which you seem to have little regard for.

If you don't think it is a big deal that people keep their word, that speaks for for itself.


Please refer to the above post.
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:25 PM   #53 (Print)
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My rhetoric was heated, and of the form "if you walk across the street without looking, you could get run over" I ought to have worded in the form of "if a person walks across the street ..."

As I wrote earlier, "If you would never betray your honour, I salute you for that. "

I meant that.

From what I understand of your position, I think you would agree that if these screen shots did come from a beta tester, that breaking their word to Tivo and giving them to engadget would be a reprehensible action deserving of our scorn.

Is that common ground?
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:28 PM   #54 (Print)
Test
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maybe it was tivo that leaked...

maybe it was the guy who wrote the blog for engadget...he could have signed up for the beta test...

maybe it was the grandmother of a beta tester who realize she got a new release on the tivo, so she decided to take pics of it with her digital camera and email them to engadet so they could add them to their weblog...

ah what can you do...people will be people

edit: enough about this honor stuff...C'MON how about a little respect for people you dont even know...
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:37 PM   #55 (Print)
DrStrange
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Originally Posted by piper
Why are you attributing this 'TiVo leaked it theory' to me?

You're the one that jumped in with "viral marketing" when I asked why Tivo would counter the DirecTV news with leaks of crappy screenshots instead of a issuing a PR. It's the first thing you said in your first post in this thread. And you've defended it since...
Quote:
Originally Posted by piper
There was a recent 'NDA indiscretion' relating to the XBOX 360 where someone's son supposedly posted a picture of himself playing with the new console onto the internet and that was widely interpreted as a nifty bit of viral marketing by Microsoft.

Also, the timing of this is to put it mildly a little 'coincidental' wouldn't you agree (I'm referring to the DirecTV announcement)?

If that isn't a suggestion that the leak might be Tivos doing, what is it?

Of course you'll point out that you keep hedging on this by admitting it's probably a beta tester that leaked it, yet you keep scolding people who make that assumption for not considering other possibilities, and the only one you've presented (several times) is that Tivo could have leaked it. But you have no evidence of that, deny it's a theory you find likely, yet apparently can't allow anyone to go with and react to the probable theory (you keep calling it that!) in peace.

If you think it's a beta tester, stop arguing with the people who think so too. If you think it's Tivo, stop waffling and say so (and explain why Tivo would have gone with a screenshot leak instead of a PR. Anecdotes about other companies don't count, nor does one flimsy perceived coincidence). If you're just on a mission to convince everyone not to "jump" to the extremely likely conclusion until details that we'll probably never get rule out a slim possibility that you have no evidence of and that you admit is unlikely, well...good luck with that.
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:47 PM   #56 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Originally Posted by Test
maybe it was tivo that leaked...

maybe it was the guy ...

maybe it was the grandmother...
Speculating on the identity of the person is pointless and irrelevant.

I think we can agree that if the person was a beta tester, that they committed a dishonorable act of betraying the trust that was placed in them.

Though everyone has lapses in moral judgement, it is proper not to defend or offer excuses for such behavior. As Steve said, it happens.

But considering the numbers of people in beta programs, we should take note of how rarely this happens- that is a testament to how honorable most beta testers of all kinds of software products are.
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Old 08-11-2005, 06:49 PM   #57 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
My rhetoric was heated, and of the form "if you walk across the street without looking, you could get run over" I ought to have worded in the form of "if a person walks across the street ..."

As I wrote earlier, "If you would never betray your honour, I salute you for that. "

I meant that.

From what I understand of your position, I think you would agree that if these screen shots did come from a beta tester, that breaking their word to Tivo and giving them to engadget would be a reprehensible action deserving of our scorn.

Is that common ground?


Yes it is. Cheers.

I'm amazed the problem doesn't come up more often but in this case it seems to be the 'open beta' approach whereby what seems like a bunch of random people are getting the software.

I still don't think it is a big problem although it is a little sad that what TiVo seemed to be trying to do is avoid the problems with the too early (my opinion) release of 7.x in January and then got burned with an NDA violation.
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:03 PM   #58 (Print)
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Originally Posted by DrStrange
You're the one that jumped in with "viral marketing" when I asked why Tivo would counter the DirecTV news with leaks of crappy screenshots instead of a issuing a PR. It's the first thing you said in your first post in this thread. And you've defended it since...

If that isn't a suggestion that the leak might be Tivos doing, what is it?

Of course you'll point out that you keep hedging on this by admitting it's probably a beta tester that leaked it, yet you keep scolding people who make that assumption for not considering other possibilities, and the only one you've presented (several times) is that Tivo could have leaked it. But you have no evidence of that, deny it's a theory you find likely, yet apparently can't allow anyone to go with and react to the probable theory (you keep calling it that!) in peace.

If you think it's a beta tester, stop arguing with the people who think so too. If you think it's Tivo, stop waffling and say so (and explain why Tivo would have gone with a screenshot leak instead of a PR. Anecdotes about other companies don't count, nor does one flimsy perceived coincidence). If you're just on a mission to convince everyone not to "jump" to the extremely likely conclusion until details that we'll probably never get rule out a slim possibility that you have no evidence of and that you admit is unlikely, well...good luck with that.



Hang on, this is my entire first post: "Viral marketing although in this case it does seem more likely someone on the beta test program took the pictures and sent them to engadget but it's hard to tell."

It was just a suggestion not a claim that viral marketing was actually being used.

What I am 'defending' (not that I feel I should even have to) is the position that people should not jump to conclusions, not the fact that I really believe it IS viral marketing. When I mentioned the XBOX thing and the timing of the leak it was just to throw out other explanations for the current situation in an effort to show potential different scenarios.

As far as your last paragraph goes, what exactly are you trying to achieve? To put words in my mouth? Make me agree with you? Please understand that it is possible...deep breath...to actually admit you don't know something. In this case I have explained several times that I don't know what is going on but am willing to consider different scenarios.

Also, slagging people off (not me - the person alledgedly responsible for the leak) isn't very clever when for all people here know IF the pictures came from a beta tester's TiVo they might have been taken by...his wife...his kids...his best friend... ANYONE and therefore posting about how he should live in hell for the rest of his life for being 'dishonourable' is a little weird.
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Old 08-11-2005, 07:51 PM   #59 (Print)
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Hang on, this is my entire first post: "Viral marketing although in this case it does seem more likely someone on the beta test program took the pictures and sent them to engadget but it's hard to tell."

Yes. And I did say you'd defend yourself by pointing out the hedging you've done.

Quote:
What I am 'defending' (not that I feel I should even have to) is the position that people should not jump to conclusions, not the fact that I really believe it IS viral marketing. When I mentioned the XBOX thing and the timing of the leak it was just to throw out other explanations for the current situation in an effort to show potential different scenarios.

You were asking us to consider explanations that you don't believe are likely? That makes no sense at all, so I'll assume you're claiming you threw these out as random examples, not as viable alternative explanations. But wouldn't it have been easier, on you and the people you're trying to convince, to use real viable alternative explanations as your examples instead of hypothetical ones that even you keep calling unlikely? Why not do that, unless you can't think of any that sound even less plausible?
(And the timing of the leak "example" was specific to Tivo, this leak, and todays DirecTV press release so please don't insult me by trying to pass that off as a hypothetical example. There's simply no way you can make that not sound like you were submitting it as a real possibility.)
Quote:
As far as your last paragraph goes, what exactly are you trying to achieve? To put words in my mouth? Make me agree with you?

No, I was trying to guess at what you're trying to achieve, because it's wasn't clear. But your quote above was pretty much a reworded version of my last guess, so I'll consider the question answered.

Now I'll get out of here before I accidently personally attack someone again by criticizing something they said that badly needed criticizing.
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Old 08-11-2005, 08:00 PM   #60 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Speculating on the identity of the person is pointless and irrelevant.



WOW, you got the point of my post...congrats. but isn't sitting here arguing or "having a heated discussion" about if the person that did it is honorable or not kind of contradicting to the whole pointless and irrelevant comment you just made?

what if it was tivo that leaked it? who would you condemn then? would you condemn them to hell and cancel your service??? something tells me no.

what if the person entering the service numbers to get the release put a 2 instead of a 1 and someone that didn't sign up for beta got the test release and sent in the pics???? WHAT IF TIVO screwed up and sent it to someone that didn't ask...C'MON....there are so many possibilities to what happened that its totally pointless to even ARGUE about it, until tivo finds out what actually happened, then you can condem whoever you want...whats done is done.

and btw i totally agree with piper "for all people here know IF the pictures came from a beta tester's TiVo they might have been taken by...his wife...his kids...his best friend... ANYONE and therefore posting about how he should live in hell for the rest of his life for being 'dishonourable' is a little weird."
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