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Old 08-12-2005, 12:37 PM   #91 (Print)
Y-ASK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
I am not preaching about it.

Nor was that comment directed towards you. You havn't been preaching at all. Just voicing your opinion, which I happen to agree with on most issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
PS - each person does not decide for themselves what is honorable, a code is meant for the population of people and is not a relative thing. please check your logic. each person decides fro themselves whether they DO the honorable thing or ignore what is known to be honorable.

Well, I would think you learn what is honorable from your parents and grandparents in most cases. You bring that knowledge with you into adult life and as you grow older you make some mistakes along the way and hopefully learn from those mistakes. I think it's alot easier to know what line not to cross when your 40 as opposed to 18. I think we are both saying the same thing when you say, ZeoTivo wrote: "each person decides fro themselves whether they DO the honorable thing or ignore what is known to be honorable". Just remember that everyone is different and that what you consider a dishonorable action may not be dishonorable to someone else or their culture for that matter. On this particular issue I think we are both in agreement but, depending on the circumstances, I don't make it into such a big deal...

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Old 08-12-2005, 12:40 PM   #92 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
yes but you said "TiVo did this to themselves" thus blowing away any extremely reasonable doubt that it was a random person. Please apply the same logic to yourself as you apply to others.

man I love it when you pick apart my words . If you keep this up there is no way I will ever be able to respond to anything you write in a timely manner. Hell I have to re-read everything twice now just to make sure that it is grammtically correct.

What I meant by that is Tivo provided the reasonable doubt defense themselves. Now nit-pick that one .

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Old 08-12-2005, 12:50 PM   #93 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Those who have chosen to defend or make excuses about reprehensible behavior ought to take note of TivoOps statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoOpsMgr
... we will look closely at this when deciding whether or not to hold open betas in the future.


Whatever one's personal standard of conduct, the consequences of not having this kind of volume testing means that Tivo releases will not be as strong as ones that had the benefit of an open beta.

Violating rules of conduct has consequences.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:51 PM   #94 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-ASK
What I meant by that is Tivo provided the reasonable doubt defense themselves. Now nit-pick that one .

Y-ASK


no nit-picking to do - I agree with everything Test said in his last post and what you said in your last two posts just above. hey when I agree, I agree

except I still think if someone broke an NDA it should be a big deal so others see it as a bad thing. That is where we disagree and that is fine with me as long as I get the right to post and make it a big deal
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:57 PM   #95 (Print)
dropd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoOpsMgr
I just wanted to emphasize the "extremely likely" portion of this quote. Speaking personally, I'm extremely upset about the leak, and we will look closely at this when deciding whether or not to hold open betas in the future.


While violation of an NDA is not at ALL cool, I have to quibble with TiVo folks' repeated use of the term "open beta" to describe this. "Open Beta" is generally understood to mean "available to everyone", and can be publically discussed.

For example, the Firefox browser has "open betas". Open to all, unrestricted.

I would not call a beta program that requires an iron-clad NDA an "open beta" at all.
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Old 08-12-2005, 01:19 PM   #96 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo
except I still think if someone broke an NDA it should be a big deal so others see it as a bad thing. That is where we disagree and that is fine with me as long as I get the right to post and make it a big deal

Well I kind of think we agree here too! I would just like the circumstances to be brought out and I think that if the NDA breaker is an older adult (21 and older) they should have enough sense to know better. Now if it's some kid between 14-20 with their own account with Tivo then maybe we differ here because I do not think it is that big of a deal. I would maybe try to show them the wrongness of their actions but I wouldn't consider them dishonorable. I wouldn't call them scum-bags. The problem is that everything may be just fine with all the NDA signers and this is from Tivo pre-releasing the software themselves.


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Old 08-12-2005, 01:33 PM   #97 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Violating rules of conduct has consequences.

Right! Just ask Bill Clinton about that...

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Old 08-12-2005, 02:31 PM   #98 (Print)
ZeoTiVo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-ASK
Well I kind of think we agree here too! I would just like the circumstances to be brought out and I think that if the NDA breaker is an older adult (21 and older) they should have enough sense to know better. Now if it's some kid between 14-20 with their own account with Tivo then maybe we differ here because I do not think it is that big of a deal. I would maybe try to show them the wrongness of their actions but I wouldn't consider them dishonorable. I wouldn't call them scum-bags. The problem is that everything may be just fine with all the NDA signers and this is from Tivo pre-releasing the software themselves.


Y-ASK



yep, even more and more scientific studies coming out on how teenagers are still developing the frontol cortex or whatever and decision making is still not the best. In fact I doubt an NDA or any contract is binding with a minor anyway. Though I certainly hope a parent would explain the dishonorable act of violating the NDA to the little punk
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:37 PM   #99 (Print)
HeyGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dropd
While violation of an NDA is not at ALL cool, I have to quibble with TiVo folks' repeated use of the term "open beta" to describe this. "Open Beta" is generally understood to mean "available to everyone", and can be publically discussed.

For example, the Firefox browser has "open betas". Open to all, unrestricted.

I would not call a beta program that requires an iron-clad NDA an "open beta" at all.



excellent post, excellent. Open Beta? what a joke, open means open to the public, so.......
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:00 PM   #100 (Print)
RoyK
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I've been quietly reading all these rants. Lets see if I have it right.

If the pictures were 'leaked' by a beta tester who signed a NDA then that person is a scoundrel.

If the pictures were posted by someone who got the upgrade but did not sign a NDA then that's ok.

If the pictures were 'leaked' by TiVo then its a brilliant publicity stunt.

That about cover it?
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:11 PM   #101 (Print)
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In addition to the Engadget article on this topic, Fox News' Shepard Smith just ran the quick story "TiVo Tests Internet Download Service" in which he details TiVo's deal with the Independent Film Channel to download content via broadband.

I also just found this article over at Forbes.com:

Update 1: TiVo Tests Internet Download Service
Add TiVo Inc. to the list of companies trying to wed the Internet to television. The digital recording company is preparing to enable customers to download TV shows to their set-top boxes via the Internet - even before the shows air on TV.

TiVo has struck a deal with the Independent Film Channel to transmit several of the cable channel's shows through a broadband connection as part of a trial program. A group of customers were asked to take part in the test and those who chose to participate will begin receiving the IFC shows next week, said TiVo spokesman Elliot Sloane.

Content on demand has long been a holy grail for Internet and cable companies as they try to create the next generation of television. No one yet has found a way to overcome key technological hurdles, such as finding a speedy way to pump two-hour movies through broadband, or convince Hollywood that it can profit from Internet broadcasts.

Still, broadband connections are picking up speed, and are moving closer to becoming a reliable delivery method for broadcast-quality video. Should the day come that video is downloaded at the touch of a button, some of the stakeholders in the sector foresee a vast video universe of endless variety.

For TiVo, the news comes a day after the company saw its s---k fall more than x percent following a media report that DirecTV was planning to stop marketing the service to its 14 million customers. News Corp.-owned DirecTV is planning to throw support behind a competing digital recording company. About 70 percent of TiVo's 3.3 million users have come from its deal with DirecTV.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:29 PM   #102 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyGuy
excellent post, excellent. Open Beta? what a joke, open means open to the public, so.......
Come on. Cut them some slack on the semantics. They want to distinguish the new experiment that TivoPony announced a few days ago. Certainly it is not like the firefox beta or the netscape betas. You have to agree to the NDA, so it's nothing like those open betas.

All I think they intended was that instead of Tivo hand picking their beta testers as I understand is their normal practice, they wanted to open it up to anyone who volunteered on a first come first served basis.

So I think it is a bit nit picky. If you want to call it something else, then fine. But they had a reason to use the word "open" to describe it.

Jeez, cut them some slack. They cut the beta applicants a lot of slack by trusting anyone who stepped up.

See where that got them.

Roy- I think that is fair assessment except for the brilliant publicity. Outside of this forum there is virtually no buzz. I am with the good Doctor on this- Press releases are far more effective. Sure- it is not unknown for some companies to stoop to such decepetive tactics, but there is no evidence Tivo is in this category. A company representative has categorically denied it.

Back in my day when I was doing my own product releases (nothing like the millions of user Tivo has, but 6 figure audiences), security was essential to our marketing advantage. If a beta tester released key functionality to our competition early enough, it could have cost us a LOT of money. And to a small company, that comes down to something less abstract than dollars and cents. It means you have to let go people you can't afford to pay anymore because the competition scooped you on the feature. If I come on a little strong about this, its because I can relate to the problem in a very personal way. I'm not particularly moralistic- that's not where this is coming from. I just hit the ceiling when folks try to trivialize this.

If the guy was under NDA would they be a Scoundrel? No, that's a little too pretty. I have a few more colorful expressions I would use but I wouldn't want to spice up this interchange anymore than has already been accomplished.

PS. I don't think we worked out the correct tag for the grandmother case.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:43 PM   #103 (Print)
RoyK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme

Roy- I think that is fair assessment except for the brilliant publicity. Outside of this forum there is virtually no buzz. I am with the good Doctor on this- Press releases are far more effective. Sure- it is not unknown for some companies to stoop to such decepetive tactics, but there is no evidence Tivo is in this category. A company representative has categorically denied it.

If the guy was under NDA would they be a Scoundrel? No, that's a little too pretty. I have a few more colorful expressions I would use but I wouldn't want to spice up this interchange anymore than has already been accomplished.

PS. I don't think we worked out the correct tag for the grandmother case.


On the contrary. Its on Reuters, AP, There's a link to a Forbes article above. I'm seeing it all over. Not saying that they did it by any means - just that its one of the only 3 possibilities that I see.

Actually I haven't seen any evidence to support any of the three alternatives.

As to a violator of a NDA. Whatever we call them if TiVo is damaged by the disclosure and can track down who did it then they can certainly sue him. Of course they would have to prove damages which might be difficult since they almost simultaneously released the upgrade to non signers.

Don't get me wrong - if the NDA was violated then TiVo will likely think twice about more open betas. That would be a loss to us all.

Last edited by RoyK : 08-12-2005 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:59 PM   #104 (Print)
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I find it hilarious that TiVo admits that they have been sending the software update to some people not under NDA, and yet is so upset about a few pictures being posted.

Sure, it's wrong to break one's NDA, but where's the proof that the pictures were obtained by breaking the NDA? It could easily have been someone who randomly got the update, or a roommate/friend/relative of someone under NDA, etc. No way to know, right? Who is leaping to conclusions now?

And if TiVo was really confident that screenshots would never leak out, that was INCREDIBLY naive.
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:29 PM   #105 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magicalday
I find it hilarious that TiVo admits that they have been sending the software update to some people not under NDA, and yet is so upset about a few pictures being posted.

Sure, it's wrong to break one's NDA, but where's the proof that the pictures were obtained by breaking the NDA? It could easily have been someone who randomly got the update, or a roommate/friend/relative of someone under NDA, etc. No way to know, right? Who is leaping to conclusions now?

And if TiVo was really confident that screenshots would never leak out, that was INCREDIBLY naive.
I get it. Software companies are naive to have beta programs.

More trivializaiton- just a few pictures etc. Ok. So you think it is hilarious. I tell you what, try firing someone sometime because your product is not doing well.

See how hilarious the experience is.

Of course there is no proof. Who said there was? But what is your point- how could there ever be any proof without the perpetrator or Engadget revealing his source. What does that mean- we have no right to comment on what a scumbag thing it would have been if the person was under NDA? Does that offer some sort of fig leaf protection from scorn? No fricking way.

If the person was under NDA, it was a dishonorable act deserving of our scorn. Are you ok with that?
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:34 PM   #106 (Print)
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Let's take em out back and beat the hell out of em is what I say . That'll learn ye!

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Old 08-12-2005, 05:46 PM   #107 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y-ASK
Let's take em out back and beat the hell out of em is what I say . That'll learn ye!

Y-ASK
Jess don't ye go too far like ye done last time Jethro. It was might queerish that racket he let out when ye dekerated him with that brandin iron of yorn. That Tivo feller mark sure is cute, but it prolly rubbed off when we drug him behind the dually.
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Old 08-12-2005, 08:14 PM   #108 (Print)
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I wish they would offer more for the subscribers who don't have a broadband internet connection to their TiVo. I pay the same amount as the people who do, and I don't have B/B. Why shouldn't I get anything like this. I know that this video cannot be transfered via. phone, but they could do the same thing they do with the Discovery Channel. I really don't think that people should be left out of something this big. After all...it's the same $12.95

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Old 08-12-2005, 08:21 PM   #109 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glued2TiVo
I wish they would offer more for the subscribers who don't have a broadband internet connection to their TiVo. I pay the same amount as the people who do, and I don't have B/B. Why shouldn't I get anything like this. I know that this video cannot be transfered via. phone, but they could do the same thing they do with the Discovery Channel. I really don't think that people should be left out of something this big. After all...it's the same $12.95



I didn't think there was anyone left without broadband. If you were content with the service you received before for 12.95, and it hasnt changed for you at all, what's the issue?
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:33 PM   #110 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
If the person was under NDA, it was a dishonorable act deserving of our scorn. Are you ok with that?

I guess the question is whether the inverse would be true. IF the person wasn't under the NDA, it was a CERTAINLY A legal act NOT deserving of the vitrol and name calling found here. Even if he wasn't, it most possibly was a legal act anyway. Read below...

I guess the oh-so-quick response to label him a witch, dunk him in the water, and cry for more blood is what makes this so unpalatable to a tiny minority.

The irony is it's all pretty moot.

NDA's can only restrict information not generally available to the public or can be legally known by other means. While I don't know the "small sample" of Tivo users who got the release WITHOUT signing the NDA, I could argue that it could be enough to satisify the availability clause thereby releasing all those under the NDA from their contractual obligations. There's no hard and fast numbers rule but I'm fairly confident Tivo's NDA no longer holds any weight with this release. And the information CAN be legally known by other means.

Whose fault is that? Tivo's. Justin, you can blast the person who passed on the information all want but Tivo admitted it sent the update to those who did not sign an NDA. Any company which believes it could be caused financial damage by widespread public release of a beta product shouldn't do such a thing and any company that does is foolish and not defensible.

I remember a reporter friend who once got a call from a pollster trying to conduct a "secret" poll on behalf of a politician. The polling company contracted foolishly didn't consider that the possibility existed that the "random" phone number called could be a member of the fourth estate. My friend still gets a chuckle from that to this day.

You can't have it BOTH ways. If the information is so important it has to be protected by an NDA, don't send it to people who didn't sign one. Seems cut and dry to me. This is Tivo's error and I could argue the NDA is now unenforcable even on those who signed it.

_ITV

P.S. I don't have a copy of this NDA. I didn't read it or sign it but I've written, seen, and enforced NDAs for longer than I care to remember and they are very similar in nature and scope.
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Old 08-13-2005, 03:10 AM   #111 (Print)
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Somewhat lengthy, but tiresome. You are making a point of law, and it is irrelevant to a point of honor.

There is a yawning gulf between what is covered by honor, and what is covered by the law.

Under the law, a person can murder someone and get away with a suspended sentence, or perhaps walk free. The person that did it may lawfully be free yet have no honor.

Our collective codes of conduct is what holds society's fabric together- it is made up of people who are guided by a sense of what is fair, and not by what their lawyers tell them they can get away with.

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 08-13-2005 at 03:26 AM.
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Old 08-13-2005, 06:07 AM   #112 (Print)
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You just don't get it, do you? It's not for YOU to decide what is honorable or dishonorable for your fellow man. You can form an opinion for yourself and feel as you feel but you cannot force those feelings on others as it seems you are trying to do here. You've voiced your opinion so "Get off your Soap Box".

InteractiveTV, that was a great post and I wish I were able to write as eloquently as you...

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Old 08-13-2005, 09:50 AM   #113 (Print)
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
Somewhat lengthy, but tiresome. You are making a point of law, and it is irrelevant to a point of honor.

There is a yawning gulf between what is covered by honor, and what is covered by the law.

Under the law, a person can murder someone and get away with a suspended sentence, or perhaps walk free. The person that did it may lawfully be free yet have no honor.

Our collective codes of conduct is what holds society's fabric together- it is made up of people who are guided by a sense of what is fair, and not by what their lawyers tell them they can get away with.
ROFLMAO

We're talking about BUSINESS, right? About Tivo trying to protect it's finacially valuable pre-release information? You were talking about, sniff, sniff, employees getting laid off by the competition scooping a feature. Tivo didn't rely on honor, it relied on a legally binding contract that TIVO'S OWN ACTIONS most likely invalidated anyway! Tivo runs a business, not a commune. Tivo has SHAREHOLDERS, not groupies. This was Tivo's error and if you can't bring yourself to ever fault Tivo that's your deal.

I thought you weren't moralistic? Isn't that what you said?

If you truly believe companies rely on the general public's honor (a small random sample, according to Tivo), then I really just don't know what to say.

I also don't see why anyone would feel the need to be "honor bound" to keep a contract when its terms are moot.

Perhaps I missed saying the Pledge of Tivo this morning but you've made an arguement that has no real bearing on this whatsoever. It's the last vestige of a Three Stooges debate at this point.

Do me a favor, don't tell me that people are bound by an NDA then tell me points of law are "tiresome." You lose all credibility trying to use a legal contract to make your point then try and actually avoid what it means, how enforcable it is, and why it might not even apply.

The New Tivo Honor Police! I love this. Really. It made my morning.

I thought this was a business Tivo was in and I thought Tivo was run like a business. I guess I was wrong. I guess Justin is the Honor judge and jury, passing judgement on a moral code (for someone who isn't moralistic).

Bottom line is you enforce NDAs to keep information a secret. It's pretty stupid to release that information to the general public AT RANDOM if you want to keep it a secret. If you can't bring yourself to recognize that fact, I guess we can move on from here. No morality, no honor, just BAD BUSINESS.

_ITV

P.S. yeah, let's discuss murder. That really keeps perspective in place.
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:48 PM   #114 (Print)
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I meant no disrespect for the law or lawyers. Our society and our economy would be unrecognisable without a uniform system of justice that safeguards our freedoms.

I merely pointed out you are making a point of law, and I was discussing a point of honor. The two are different, and neither are made obsolete by the other. Society relies on both. It is foolhardy to rely solely on honor (or however one refers to their code of conduct), and equally foolhardy to simply rely on the letter of the law. It is proper that there is a yawning gulf between the two, because I for one don't want anyone legislating their morality on me. Everyone has personal codes of conduct and it is fundamental to the american spirit to reject other groups preaching to us about what is right and wrong. I used some pretty moralistic language and I think some of the some of the posters here were defending this fundamental principle that I happen to agree strongly with. But though we have diverse codes of conduct, people in the world are always taken by the profound sense of fairness that Americans from diverse cultures commonly exhibit. It is that sense of fairness that informs the vast majority of social behavior, not the advice of lawyers on what you can get away with under current law.

I think the content owners whose rights you so often correctly champion need to take that into consideration.

Rob Glaser at Real Networks made the point that if the content folks give the public an avenue to do the right thing, they will. "The music industry by not offering legitimate alternatives was making it very difficult for honest consumers to do the right thing". Similarly for the studios, large numbers of people will copy dvds and share them with their friends- Their repressive reliance on points of law will be as futile as mattress tags. It's a risky business proposition to rely more on trust as you suggested. But business deals are fundamentally based on trust between parties. Sure- the iTunes method of distribution was risky because Apple's DRM is pretty darn weak, and there is no effective way of using the law to prevent customers from violating the content owner's copyright. But it was a smashing success because why? Because most people don't begrudge giving the industry a fair price for a product they value.

So mock people's codes of of coduct all you like- the way out of the legal problems involved with DVR technology will have a strong component of relying on people's sense of fairness rather than than a sense of what they can get away with under current law.

Last edited by Justin Thyme : 08-13-2005 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 08-13-2005, 01:50 PM   #115 (Print)
interactiveTV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Thyme
So mock people's codes of of coduct all you like- the way out of the legal problems involved with DVR technology will have a strong component of relying on people's sense of fairness rather than than a sense of what they can get away with under current law.
I don't mock a code of conduct but the cape enblazened with a "T" that you wear while you...

call someone a "scumbag"

say they have betrayed their "word" and broken their "honor"

that they "betrayed" Tivo

"sold their integrity"

and that violating the NDA might effect Tivo's "open beta" program in the future.

However, Justin, while your code of conduct might have you convict, trash, and ridicule FIRST before looking at all the facts, MY CODE OF CONDUCT tells me to give people the BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT and PERHAPS assume innocence first rather than guilt.

That Tivo most likely nullified its OWN NDA BY ITS OWN ACTIONS seems to be something you avoid discussing at all costs. Tivo is completely blameless by you. The fear that Tivo might not conduct an open beta in the future, quoted by you, even though it STUPIDLY sent out a "secret" to a RANDOM number of people seems illogical.

Your code of conduct is NOT the judge of this person's actions. Your name calling and general thrashing of whomever leaked the pictures seems to imply just as much about CHARACTOR as the "honor" you seem to prize so highly.

The BUSINESS issue as it pertains to TIVO is that Tivo screwed up. It has, IMO, a non-enforcable NDA due to its OWN actions.

I'll leaving the MORALITY JUDGING to someone else, thank you. You made your point endlessly in this thread and any attempt to bring the actual business (which in this case are legal) reprocussions to the forefront have been met with more of the same morality code by you.

Shall we make this person wear a big "L" for LEAK for the rest of their days?

I still think you would have made a great citizen of Salem.

She's a witch I tell you! A witch!!!!
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Old 08-13-2005, 02:19 PM   #116 (Print)
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Man if Tivo was a religion there would be alot of "radical fundementalist here"
there are some of you that constantly sing the praises of Tivo from the mountian top
for all to hear, you never ever utter a single word to the contrary.

If it were just you watching Tivo there would be no improvement of development
because as far as some of you are concerned TIVO is GOD and can do no wrong

someone will say that the ad's are a terrible and the rest of the cult will jump all over them
with insults and "you feel intitled to not watch commercials like it' s in the constitution"

people here say that Tivo should screen people better so this doen't happen
and they get jumped all over for having an opinion,
JUST BECAUSE YOU DON"T AGREE DOESN'T MAKE YOU RIGHT!!!!

we are just expressing our opinions and it is the negative feedback backed by the positive response for a possible service that gets things developed well not the immediate praise alot of you just give up willingly.

I hope TIVO fills the enitre screen with and ad and takes away FF and then
never asks for feedback from it's subscribers by letting them in on something new
in fear someone else will scoop it up. (I mean they have missed the boat on a second tunner for how long now and every cable company in the US knows how important this is)Thus remaining static and boring then we will see how long the Praise to the Glory of TIVO goes on for

by the way I love my Tivo

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Old 08-13-2005, 02:20 PM   #117 (Print)
devlindark
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by the way this is what always happens in the electronic entertainment industry
things get leaked all the time - most of the time on purpose because it generates a buzz in the industry,

Nothing new here

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Old 08-13-2005, 02:43 PM   #118 (Print)
RoyK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devlindark

I hope TIVO fills the enitre screen with and ad and takes away FF ......


Now lets not get carried away here... somebody might take that seriously
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Old 08-13-2005, 03:50 PM   #119 (Print)
smak
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All this because people think violating an NDA is a bad thing?

I don't remember anybody thinking somebody violating an NDA should be carted off in shackles to jail.

You agree to an NDA, you should stick by it. Period!

-smak-

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Old 08-13-2005, 07:40 PM   #120 (Print)
Justin Thyme
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ITV, if you took care to read my comments, you would see that I restricted all of those remarks to those who had agreed to the NDA. If you also care to read my notes, you would know I am also an MCE owner and that I have plenty of acidic remarks about Tivo. In particular I recently likened the assent of Rogers as the entering into dark times for Tivo. Sure I am a partisan, and it is fair to say that I am an unabashed supporter of the cause of independent DVR suppliers. To me though, Tivo is simply a best of breed product- it is not a religion. I certainly would replace my Tivos with an Apple DVR if it were better.

I do not avoid your legal point- if you would bother to show how it is relevant I'd be happy to discuss it. Whether or not people can legally get away with doing something the NDA is designed to prevent may be an interesting point of law to you. Fine. You can make fun of people who feel honor bound to carry out the spirit of an agreement that has a legal flaw. You may or may not feel that there is no need for personal codes of conduct if we had strong laws. But last I checked most people were in agreement that though they believe in a strong sense of right an wrong we should not go around trying to legislate points of morality. It is proper that there is a division between what the laws cover and what personal codes of conduct cover. Last I checked, the law does not attempt to dictate what is honorable or dishonorable. That is left for the public to decide as a matter of collective agreement on what is proper. That collective agreement is impossible if people are shy about calling a spade a spade. Sure- I have used some pretty heated language. I call them like I see them.

I think most people here agree that if the person was under NDA that it was wrong or stupid or whatever. I may have gone overboard with some of by rhetoric- I certainly would not drag a person behind a ford pickup until only stumps were left.

That sort of talk is perverse. I'm a Dodge man.
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