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Old 09-21-2005, 12:22 AM   #121 (Print)
CrazyFred
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarm
So your friend is a beta tester without a NDA?



My friend has a NDA, but what is she supposed to do hide the unit when I come over? She knows that I am a DVR geek and just bounces some things off of me in generic terms. Let me put it this way, when I go over there she isn't hogging the remote control and not letting me interface with the DVR.
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Old 09-21-2005, 11:02 AM   #122 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
Can you not say because you are not sure or because you feel you shouldn't say?


D*, themselves, is not sure, at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
Dependant on market penetration how? ie the box sucks so badly that they have to enable MRV to distinguish it from TiVo, or that it so good that D* feels we earned MRV by accepting their new box?


More the latter. They're not going to bother investing in developing and supporting HMO and MRV features if they've only sold, say, 100,000 units.

I'd expect you won't get any incremental features until the number of R15s (or above) in the public chain exceeds the number of TiVos.

I might be surprised -- but D* rarely does anything edgy or surprising.
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Old 09-21-2005, 11:16 AM   #123 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogarthNH
I might be surprised -- but D* rarely does anything edgy or surprising.
I'm not sure I agree. Wasn't DirecTV the first with dual-tuner DVRs and the first with a HiDef DVR?

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Old 09-21-2005, 11:18 AM   #124 (Print)
Dan Collins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarm
Ragged edge?

One of the leading HDTV chipset suppliers is Broadcom, who offer single chips capable of 10 Gb/s. I don't think 90 Mb/s is quite as difficult as you're making it sound.

I can't envision even one scenario where 9 streams would be running at once. I know Broadcom has at least one chip with 4 tuner and 3 PVR stream capability and I think that's sufficient for a first generation effort. Streams to the clients for recorded programs are simply network management, not decoding or tuner workload.
I'm not talking about decoding the signal or tuner load...that's easy. I'm talking about the bus between the decoders and the hard drive (remember that EVERY stream has to go through the hard drive) and the hard drive and the network interface. That's not a chip level bus, that's a system level bus. This introduces RF and EMI interference issues, FCC Class B computing device certification AND bandwidth concerns.

You may not be able to foresee a 9 stream situation, but if the box has 4 tuners (2 of which are ATSC tuners generating 18Mb/sec streams), 2 local outputs and support for 3 HD remotes, you can bet your bottom dollar that some users will need 9 streams at once - there is also no point in building a system with such specs if you can't use them all. Writing between 50 and 60 Mbits/sec and simultaneously reading anywhere from 50 to 90 Mbits/sec, across up to 9 randomly distributed chains, is most definitely at the ragged edge of hard disk performance. It is also a serious design issue for the system bus, if you want to keep the cost contained.

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Old 09-21-2005, 11:18 AM   #125 (Print)
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Dual Tuner - DVR... yes

HDTV DVR - No... there where other's out there (and still are that are OTA only).

I do think they where the first Dual Tuner HDTV DVR though (and of course add in the SD/HD DirecTV channels as well).

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Old 09-21-2005, 11:48 AM   #126 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
Dual Tuner - DVR... yes

HDTV DVR - No... there where other's out there (and still are that are OTA only).

I do think they where the first Dual Tuner HDTV DVR though (and of course add in the SD/HD DirecTV channels as well).
There was a HiDef self-contained DVR out there before the HR10? I know there were PC add-in cards that could record HiDef but I didn't know there were DVRs.

BTW, Earl, I like your new signature. Clever.

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Old 09-21-2005, 12:30 PM   #127 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
2 local outputs and support for 3 HD remotes........ Writing between 50 and 60 Mbits/sec and simultaneously reading anywhere from 50 to 90 Mbits/sec, across up to 9 randomly distributed chains, is most definitely at the ragged edge of hard disk performance.


Dan,

You have mentioned the 2 local output before. Are you referring to the ability to connect 2 servers where you have a local output, ie component, HDMI etc, and the output to another server? Or are inferring the box will have 2 separate outputs like some of the E* DVR's.

With regards to disk performance. Would a dual disk setup like striping help ease the demand on the disk drives?

Clients: Would clients with hard drives be that bad. After all, some of us, you included, have multiple DVR's which is multiple drives for D* to support. If you request a show, it could be sent to the drive of the requesting client. You could start watching immediately, but the entire show would buffer on the client. In this cae, unless every client was requesting a show at the same time the demand would be eased.

For watching shows, the client would buffer the trick plays as well on its own drive. While it would be connected to the server, when it requested a channel to view, the server would act more as amultiswitch and send a satellite feed to the client bypassing the drive in the server.

I realize that in this scenario that the recording vs. liveTV would have to be separate functions unlike on our current TiVo's. So the drives in the server could do nothing but record shows and stream them out to clients.

Edit: Didn't E* beat D* to the market with the 921?
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Old 09-21-2005, 12:49 PM   #128 (Print)
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Just to add my 2 cents. While I already have a gigabit home network in place, I probably wouldn't be happy if DirecTV sucked up all my bandwidth with video streams going to multiple HD clients at once.

If they are going to need that kind of bandwidth then they will need an independent network in many cases.

I'm already up to two HD TV's in my house and can't wait to upgrade the third. If they can't do HD clients then what is the point of calling it an HMC?
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:00 PM   #129 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
Edit: Didn't E* beat D* to the market with the 921?
Oh, I'm sorry, weren't we talking about units that work?

Back to the subject at hand, why can't there be limitations to the first or second gen HMCs? Limit the HDTVs to two - one at the server and one remote. The other remotes could be SD. If you want more HD clients, buy another server. It's going to be a long time before every DirecTV sub has even one HDTV, let alone four. My guess is the large majority of multi-HDTV households only have two, probably in the family or HT room and the other in the master bedroom. I doubt many have them in the kids' rooms, too.

I have two TVs in my house but six DVRs, four on one TV and two on the other. My next house might have four TVs, but only a max of two will ever be used at the same time. I'd hate not to have the HMC available because DirecTV wants to wait until the perfect box is ready.

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Old 09-21-2005, 01:28 PM   #130 (Print)
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There was a Sony (or was it LG) HD-DVR that was exclusive for OTA content out a few months before the HR10-250 was released.

And thanks for the comments on the new sig.

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Old 09-21-2005, 01:39 PM   #131 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin L
Oh, I'm sorry, weren't we talking about units that work?


LOL
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Old 09-21-2005, 01:53 PM   #132 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
There was a Sony (or was it LG) HD-DVR that was exclusive for OTA content out a few months before the HR10-250 was released.

And thanks for the comments on the new sig.
I stand corrected. Thanks.

You're welcome for the comments.

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Old 09-21-2005, 02:18 PM   #133 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
There was a Sony (or was it LG) HD-DVR that was exclusive for OTA content out a few months before the HR10-250 was released.

And thanks for the comments on the new sig.


LG made the LST-03410A, which is a SD/HD PVR for clear QAM and ATSC.

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Old 09-21-2005, 03:25 PM   #134 (Print)
Dan Collins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
Dan,

You have mentioned the 2 local output before. Are you referring to the ability to connect 2 servers where you have a local output, ie component, HDMI etc, and the output to another server? Or are inferring the box will have 2 separate outputs like some of the E* DVR's....
According to some reports, the HMC will be able to drive two different feeds to two outputs on the HMC box (no remote unit required).

Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
...With regards to disk performance. Would a dual disk setup like striping help ease the demand on the disk drives...
Sure, but we were talking about keeping costs down. Two drives, with a RAID 1 controller, would drive up costs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
....Clients: Would clients with hard drives be that bad. After all, some of us, you included, have multiple DVR's which is multiple drives for D* to support. If you request a show, it could be sent to the drive of the requesting client. You could start watching immediately, but the entire show would buffer on the client. In this cae, unless every client was requesting a show at the same time the demand would be eased.

For watching shows, the client would buffer the trick plays as well on its own drive. While it would be connected to the server, when it requested a channel to view, the server would act more as amultiswitch and send a satellite feed to the client bypassing the drive in the server.

I realize that in this scenario that the recording vs. liveTV would have to be separate functions unlike on our current TiVo's. So the drives in the server could do nothing but record shows and stream them out to clients.


Sure, but at that point, why not just HAVE multiple DVRs? What's the point of making everything go through the server? Particularly if, as HiDefGator says, the bandwidth consumption on the LAN is so high that separate network is required. At that point, why not just pull coax and put multiple 2 tuner DVRs in that can operate as peers?

This is the real bottom line on wired versus wireless. Most people that have home networks today (and in the future) have WIRELESS networks (Don't believe it? Go shopping in any CompUSA for wired routers, adapters and hubs...you'll found at least twice as many wireless as wired products). If the HMC requires that wire be pulled to each viewing location then you might as well pull coax and put a tuner or two and a hard drive in every box and skip the whole idea of a server. Once you go down the wired route, you quickly negate the benefit of the server. It is only by going wireless that the server makes sense, since you can't pass an entire satellite's signal around a house wirelessly (at least not for a reasonable price).

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Last edited by Dan Collins : 09-21-2005 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 09-21-2005, 06:02 PM   #135 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
Sure, but at that point, why not just HAVE multiple DVRs? What's the point of making everything go through the server? Particularly if, as HiDefGator says, the bandwidth consumption on the LAN is so high that separate network is required. At that point, why not just pull coax and put multiple 2 tuner DVRs in that can operate as peers?.

I agree totally. But for some reason D* does not want us as consumers to have this feature or we would already have it. At least on the SD boxes.

I think it would be a money maker for them. Make the DVR fee $9.99 for thos enable with HMO. The additional revenue should easily support another call center in India.
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Old 09-21-2005, 06:13 PM   #136 (Print)
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Wiring and such...

With all the talk about home networks, CAT-5, wiring and such in this thread, I'm surprised no one's talking about the routing multiswitches that DTV is supposedly planning to use to implement the HMC. The details are out there, and they're pretty extensive, as I recall. Makes sense anyway, doesn't it? The streams are already coming in that way. The server can send it back out that way to a smart multiswitch that knows where to send it, and as you control it, the server is basically just acting like the broadcasting station.

I believe the reports that this is how it's going to be implemented.

It also keeps people from being too easily "hackerish". When the thing is too much like a computer, with standard networking protocols, cables, connections, routers, etc., it just seems easier to hack. If DTV can keep their streams all within their closed system, through their own multiswitches (If you think about it, all your DVRs are networked this way already, in that they're all connected to each other.) Why not take greater advantage of this connection? There's most certainly bandwith available on that cable.

Ricky
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Old 09-21-2005, 08:12 PM   #137 (Print)
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First of all, according to my DirecTV contacts, such devices never existed - they were a fantasy. Secondly, even if they did exist, they would not apply to the HMC remotes since these units HAVE NO SATELLITE TUNERS. Therefore, they do not attach to the multiswitch. If they do, then again I ask, WHY BOTHER WITH A SERVER?

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Old 09-22-2005, 01:00 AM   #138 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
I'm not talking about decoding the signal or tuner load...that's easy. I'm talking about the bus between the decoders and the hard drive (remember that EVERY stream has to go through the hard drive) and the hard drive and the network interface. That's not a chip level bus, that's a system level bus. This introduces RF and EMI interference issues, FCC Class B computing device certification AND bandwidth concerns.


If a client is watching a live channel it doesn't need to go through the hard drive. At most, if the base and three clients are watching recorded shows, it's 40-45 Mb/s. Well within manageable levels of the local bus.

I'm not following your point on the RF and EMI issues. That's a design concern with any of these type of products.

Quote:
You may not be able to foresee a 9 stream situation, but if the box has 4 tuners (2 of which are ATSC tuners generating 18Mb/sec streams), 2 local outputs and support for 3 HD remotes, you can bet your bottom dollar that some users will need 9 streams at once - there is also no point in building a system with such specs if you can't use them all. Writing between 50 and 60 Mbits/sec and simultaneously reading anywhere from 50 to 90 Mbits/sec, across up to 9 randomly distributed chains, is most definitely at the ragged edge of hard disk performance. It is also a serious design issue for the system bus, if you want to keep the cost contained.


Still don't see a 9 stream scenario. 3 PVR streams is the "widest" chipset on the market today that I'm aware of. That coupled with 4 tuners should get the job done for the time being. We're not designing for all possibilities 5 years out. You have to walk before you can run.
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Old 09-22-2005, 06:10 AM   #139 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarm
If a client is watching a live channel it doesn't need to go through the hard drive.

It does if you want trick plays like pausing, 8 sec. etc..
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Old 09-22-2005, 06:49 AM   #140 (Print)
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You just need to add a couple more hard drives, and a RAID 5 controller.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
...Writing between 50 and 60 Mbits/sec and simultaneously reading anywhere from 50 to 90 Mbits/sec, across up to 9 randomly distributed chains, is most definitely at the ragged edge of hard disk performance. It is also a serious design issue for the system bus, if you want to keep the cost contained.

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Old 09-22-2005, 07:05 AM   #141 (Print)
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Personally, I'm in no hurry for the HMC based on what I'm reading about the concept. Single point of failure systems like the "server with multiple dumb clients" approach puts all of one's eggs in a single basket. With networked DVR's (like my 4 DirecTiVo's running 4.0.1b), if one of them was to go offline, at least the other three would still be up and running.

The idea of centralized program/recording management that a server-centric solution offers is certainly attractive; but, just try to explain to the wife and kids what a great idea this is when your server's hard drive fails and NO television works...

Not me - I'll stick with the redundancy-oriented solution every time...

Good luck,

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Old 09-22-2005, 07:49 AM   #142 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
Well....

My vendor has been told that the R15 is coming... somewhere between the next 20 to 40 days....

In other words October...

I guess those August 17th rumors didn't happen...

I am still on the fence about how I feel about the delay...
I am glad they are waiting to make sure they get a product they want out there... (And I REALLY hope, they "heard" the complaints about items in the manual and are trying to fix those)....

But I really would have liked to had the new box for the start of the 2005 TV series.

Oh well...

But the latest information that is out there, at least from a Supplier->Vendor->To Me...


I am thinking of getting the R10 from Circuit City. Should I wait for the R15?
What is the difference between the two?
Thanks
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:47 AM   #143 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtech
I am thinking of getting the R10 from Circuit City. Should I wait for the R15?
What is the difference between the two?

Get it. No.

We know the R10 works and for the most part, works very well. From information gathered from some "insiders" the R15 has a few problems.
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:52 AM   #144 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
Get it. No.

We know the R10 works and for the most part, works very well. From information gathered from some "insiders" the R15 has a few problems.


I would concur with HerdFan....
With R15's floating release date... who actually knows when we will see it.

Get the R10 for free.. and enjoy it.

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Old 09-22-2005, 10:28 AM   #145 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
I would concur with HerdFan....
With R15's floating release date... who actually knows when we will see it.

Get the R10 for free.. and enjoy it.


Does the R10 have dual tuners? Doesn't say on Cicuit Cities site.
Also, will I see a speed improvement over my series 1 Tivo?
Thanks for all your help.

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Old 09-22-2005, 10:39 AM   #146 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robtech
Does the R10 have dual tuners? Doesn't say on Cicuit Cities site.
Also, will I see a speed improvement over my series 1 Tivo?
Thanks for all your help.


Yes, the R10 is a dual tuner DVR. Of course, you will need two home run RG6 coax feeds from the dish or switch to operate the dual tuners.

We will have our first allocation of R15's in Mid October or no later than the beginning of November.

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Old 09-22-2005, 10:45 AM   #147 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
Yes, the R10 is a dual tuner DVR. Of course, you will need two home run RG6 coax feeds from the dish or switch to operate the dual tuners.

We will have our first allocation of R15's in Mid October or no later than the beginning of November.

-Robert


Would it be worth waiting for an R15? Any big changes from the R10?

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Old 09-22-2005, 11:45 AM   #148 (Print)
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The entire R15 is different from the R10...

Instead of listing them here, do a search on the R15... It is a new software creator, and some of the features are the same, some are different.

But there are very few that are blockbuster "new"

PS: Robtech... your avatar is against forum rules... It has to be a picture of you, or no avatar at all.

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Old 09-22-2005, 12:46 PM   #149 (Print)
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I agree with those that would prefer MRV -- sounding like HMC is too far off. So please give us an HD DVR with MRV and a terabyte of storage.

Oh and please make it brushed black aluminum with blue LED's while you are at it. No more grey plastic like the current units.
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Old 09-22-2005, 01:03 PM   #150 (Print)
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At a presentation yesterday, Chase said that the new SD DVR will be available by the end of the year. The HD DVR will be available by the end of 2006.
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