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Old 09-22-2005, 07:27 PM   #151 (Print)
goony
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Originally Posted by Curtis
At a presentation yesterday, Chase said that the new SD DVR will be available by the end of the year. The HD DVR will be available by the end of 2006.
Who or what is Chase?
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Old 09-22-2005, 07:36 PM   #152 (Print)
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Who or what is Chase?

DirecTV CEO.
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Old 09-22-2005, 07:52 PM   #153 (Print)
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Oh, that Chase. So the hint is that the R15 might be delayed until December? Well, at least it seems that they're not going to do it Dish Network style, i.e.: Bugs in a new DVR box? Let the payin' customers testem' for us!
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:03 PM   #154 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Dan Collins

This is the real bottom line on wired versus wireless. Most people that have home networks today (and in the future) have WIRELESS networks (Don't believe it? Go shopping in any CompUSA for wired routers, adapters and hubs...you'll found at least twice as many wireless as wired products). If the HMC requires that wire be pulled to each viewing location then you might as well pull coax and put a tuner or two and a hard drive in every box and skip the whole idea of a server. Once you go down the wired route, you quickly negate the benefit of the server. It is only by going wireless that the server makes sense, since you can't pass an entire satellite's signal around a house wirelessly (at least not for a reasonable price).


I have to disagree with this assesment. There are still many benefits to a central server even if you have to wire to each client box.

1. Conflict resolution. The word is you can gang up 2 HMC boxes for a total of 8 tuners that can all work in concert. You can then have a single priority list to manage all the tuners. Having a separate dvr at each tv means that conflicts must be resolved manually.

2. Whatch any show on any TV. With a central server you can watch a recorded show on any of your televesions. With a dvr at each tv you are restricted to watching the shows recorded only on that dvr.
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:04 PM   #155 (Print)
Curtis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goony
Oh, that Chase. So the hint is that the R15 might be delayed until December? Well, at least it seems that they're not going to do it Dish Network style, i.e.: Bugs in a new DVR box? Let the payin' customers testem' for us!


If there is a delay, I'm guessing it will be because DirecTV wants to see whether TiVo wins their DVR patent suit with Dish. The trial starts in late October and will probably last about a month. If TiVo wins, NDS and DirecTV would probably be next to be sued if DirecTV deploys a new DVR.
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Old 09-22-2005, 08:44 PM   #156 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis
If there is a delay, I'm guessing it will be because DirecTV wants to see whether TiVo wins their DVR patent suit with Dish. The trial starts in late October and will probably last about a month. If TiVo wins, NDS and DirecTV would probably be next to be sued if DirecTV deploys a new DVR.

I think you might have something there.
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Old 09-22-2005, 09:52 PM   #157 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis
At a presentation yesterday, Chase said that the new SD DVR will be available by the end of the year. The HD DVR will be available by the end of 2006.



guess they'll have to extend the $100 rebate, which has a 'must purchase by' date of 11/05/05 and a postmark deadline of 1/05/06.

this is getting rigoddamndiculous.
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Old 09-22-2005, 11:57 PM   #158 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryttingm
2. Whatch any show on any TV. With a central server you can watch a recorded show on any of your televesions. With a dvr at each tv you are restricted to watching the shows recorded only on that dvr.


I can watch any show recorded on any of my TiVo's on any TV in my house. No need to buy some multi-thousand network server thing to do this.

Really, it just takes a few minutes to add this...

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Old 09-23-2005, 05:18 AM   #159 (Print)
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Originally Posted by ryttingm
I have to disagree with this assesment. There are still many benefits to a central server even if you have to wire to each client box.

1. Conflict resolution. The word is you can gang up 2 HMC boxes for a total of 8 tuners that can all work in concert. You can then have a single priority list to manage all the tuners. Having a separate dvr at each tv means that conflicts must be resolved manually...
If this can be done between two servers it can be done between multiple peer DVRs. You are talking about a software feature, not an inherent advantage of the architecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryttingm
...2. Whatch any show on any TV. With a central server you can watch a recorded show on any of your televesions. With a dvr at each tv you are restricted to watching the shows recorded only on that dvr.
Been there, done that. I have that feature TODAY on my 4 DirecTiVos, and DirecTV could offer it to every DirecTiVo owner at the flip of a switch. Again, this is nothing but a software feature - and in this case, one that is ALREADY in the DirecTiVo software, but intentionally disabled by DirecTV.

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Old 09-23-2005, 07:01 AM   #160 (Print)
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I do not suffer from #2 with my networked DTivos, and with some software modification by Tivo, #1 could also be resolved. No reason for a centralized server.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryttingm
I have to disagree with this assesment. There are still many benefits to a central server even if you have to wire to each client box.

1. Conflict resolution. The word is you can gang up 2 HMC boxes for a total of 8 tuners that can all work in concert. You can then have a single priority list to manage all the tuners. Having a separate dvr at each tv means that conflicts must be resolved manually.

2. Whatch any show on any TV. With a central server you can watch a recorded show on any of your televesions. With a dvr at each tv you are restricted to watching the shows recorded only on that dvr.

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Old 09-23-2005, 07:06 AM   #161 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcady
I can watch any show recorded on any of my TiVo's on any TV in my house. No need to buy some multi-thousand network server thing to do this.

Really, it just takes a few minutes to add this...
That's fine for SD, but I don't believe it's available on the HR10-250.

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Old 09-23-2005, 07:10 AM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
If this can be done between two servers it can be done between multiple peer DVRs. You are talking about a software feature, not an inherent advantage of the architecture.
Been there, done that. I have that feature TODAY on my 4 DirecTiVos, and DirecTV could offer it to every DirecTiVo owner at the flip of a switch. Again, this is nothing but a software feature - and in this case, one that is ALREADY in the DirecTiVo software, but intentionally disabled by DirecTV.
I don't really care if it's peer-to-peer or client-server based. In fact, for redundancy, peer-to-peer is better. What is needed over and above current MRV is conflict resolution and a common SP and Todo list. The software could handle this and decide which DVR to record a particular show on.

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Old 09-23-2005, 09:02 AM   #163 (Print)
cfarm
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Originally Posted by Curtis
If there is a delay, I'm guessing it will be because DirecTV wants to see whether TiVo wins their DVR patent suit with Dish. The trial starts in late October and will probably last about a month. If TiVo wins, NDS and DirecTV would probably be next to be sued if DirecTV deploys a new DVR.



How about because it's only been in beta for a month?

I think the suit is a different issue. People thinking that Tivo has the patents for DVR techology in general are mistaken. They patented certain features, which the industry players would certainly know about and could work around.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:11 AM   #164 (Print)
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Originally Posted by herdfan
It does if you want trick plays like pausing, 8 sec. etc..


So maybe you have to give up some features or live with a limited feature set. Again, for technology to move forward, you have to do it in steps. If you're going to be demanding to have your cake and eat it too, then forget it. Learn to live with the box you already own.

The HMC, when it comes, will not do all things for all people. Neither will the R15 or any new box coming down this pipe. I guarantee you, that as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that somone will find something to complain about on these new boxes, even if the interface somehow managed to be as user friendly as the Tivo.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:40 AM   #165 (Print)
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Originally Posted by cfarm
How about because it's only been in beta for a month?

I think the suit is a different issue. People thinking that Tivo has the patents for DVR techology in general are mistaken. They patented certain features, which the industry players would certainly know about and could work around.

Yep. TiVo has dozens of patents. Here's one of them:

"United States Patent 6,233,389
Barton , * et al. May 15, 2001
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia time warping system
Abstract

A multimedia time warping system. The invention allows the user to store selected television broadcast programs while the user is simultaneously watching or reviewing another program."
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:41 AM   #166 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfarm
So maybe you have to give up some features or live with a limited feature set. Again, for technology to move forward, you have to do it in steps. If you're going to be demanding to have your cake and eat it too, then forget it. Learn to live with the box you already own.

The HMC, when it comes, will not do all things for all people. Neither will the R15 or any new box coming down this pipe. I guarantee you, that as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow that somone will find something to complain about on these new boxes, even if the interface somehow managed to be as user friendly as the Tivo.
Why would you want to give up trick playing (one of the valuable features of a DVR) just to have a server-client setup? What benefit would you be deriving to have this. I'd rather have peer-to-peer DVRs than a client-server setup that doesn't give all the benefits of a DVR to the client.

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Old 09-23-2005, 09:42 AM   #167 (Print)
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Well october is nearly here. Drumroll!!! Are the rumors beggining middle or end of october?

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Old 09-23-2005, 10:07 AM   #168 (Print)
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Well october is nearly here. Drumroll!!! Are the rumors beggining middle or end of october?

Chase said in a presentation "by the end of the year." Of course, it being D* he didn't specify which year.

I think D* will be going through another holiday season with the R10. This is a huge Catch-22 for D*. Do they order more R10's because the R15 is delayed an don't want to risk not having DVR's for the shopping season and run the risk of the R15 coming out and having to compete side by side with the R10, or do they run the risk of not having a supply of DVR's.

The more TiVo's in the pipeline the better.
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Old 09-23-2005, 10:35 AM   #169 (Print)
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Originally Posted by cfarm
How about because it's only been in beta for a month?


Beta testers have had the box since June.

Now, granted, D*'s idea of Beta testers are a subset of their own employees, but they've had it for way more than a month.
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:27 PM   #170 (Print)
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So maybe you have to give up some features or live with a limited feature set. Again, for technology to move forward, you have to do it in steps....
That's great if your are talking about moving FORWARD! The HMC is NOT a step forward, it is a step (at best) sideways. There is NOTHING that the much heralded HMC can do that could not be done with a HDTiVo and some SD DirecTiVos all networked together with HMO, except for multi-unit conflict resolution (assuming such a feature actually is offered between two HMC servers). This is not a difficult feature to add - it would simply require an additional service to poll each DVR for it's ability to record a program and schedule it on the first that responds affirmatively. This is less resource intensive than building a "master" list that knows what every DVR is doing. It would also allow ANY program to be scheduled from ANY DVR in the network.

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Old 09-23-2005, 05:35 PM   #171 (Print)
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Originally Posted by cfarm
How about because it's only been in beta for a month?

I think the suit is a different issue. People thinking that Tivo has the patents for DVR techology in general are mistaken. They patented certain features, which the industry players would certainly know about and could work around.
Firstly, the initial batch of units that would come to be called the R15 arrived at DirecTV in March. They were distributed to inhouse testers in late April and early May, but were basically unusable (too buggy) until Late May/Early June (I received a photo of the R15, with it's rotating blue light, in April, and even mentioned the "pilot light" in a post here, IIRC).

Secondly, TiVo has a great many broad and fundamental patents that cover many key aspects of DVR technology. Whether those patents are enforcable is what the Dish case is all about. If TiVo prevails, they will have shown that their "trick play" patent is enforceable against the company for whom the legal department is treated like a profit center. Every non-TiVo DVR in the US (cable and satellite) will be in violation of this patent. Do not underestimate the import of this case.

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Old 09-23-2005, 08:43 PM   #172 (Print)
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Originally Posted by cfarm
A NDA participant would know that "sharing" the device with a visitor would be outside the agreement.



is that true and/or realistic?

I mean if you have the dvr hooked up to the one tv you have in your family room and guests come over what are you supposed to do tell them they cant watch TV?

My inlaws are a neilson family- you cant tell anyone you are neilson. But when I walk in the house and go to turn the channel on the set and the little box on top of the set starts blinking wildly asking my age and sex then they dont need to tell me, but i pretty much figured it out.

I agree you shouldn't advertise you have a beta device(or a neilson box) but are you supposed to redo your whole life to hide the fact?

The NDA's I recall said something about not overtly sharing- not discussing publically, not tellign the media, I dont recall any paragraph about tackling anyone that saw my new pda or phone or dvr and tying them up in my basement until the device was realeased.
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Old 09-23-2005, 09:03 PM   #173 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
Secondly, TiVo has a great many broad and fundamental patents that cover many key aspects of DVR technology. Whether those patents are enforcable is what the Dish case is all about. If TiVo prevails, they will have shown that their "trick play" patent is enforceable against the company for whom the legal department is treated like a profit center. Every non-TiVo DVR in the US (cable and satellite) will be in violation of this patent. Do not underestimate the import of this case.
You're right, Dan, this is an important case, and I must confess, I haven't read too much about the merits. I think TiVo will have a tough time winning the trick play part of it. TiVo did not invent Pause, Rewind, Fast Forward, 30-second skip, etc. They've been a part of tape and disk based recording and playing devices for decades. It's difficult to patent a generic function or design of an invention. You can patent how some of those functions are implemented. For example, you can't patent the function of steering in a car; you can, however, get a patent if you designed a specialized steering linkage.

I think TiVo will have a tough time keeping the function of Season Passes to themselves. The idea of recording all shows of a season is revolutionary. We've been doing that with VCRs for decades, albeit crudely.

One of the things TiVo might have shot is the FF overshoot compensation, or whatever they call. Don't know anyone that does that.

It will be interesting. Let's just hope it's settled quickly and for the benefit of the consumer.

BTW, didn't Sony sue or try to sue the VHS conglomerate? We know how that helped Sony.

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Old 09-24-2005, 08:56 AM   #174 (Print)
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The key issue regarding trick play is the implementation of it against a live, unprepared, video feed, as a purely software based solution, within a CE device. Prior to the TiVo patent, all such implementations involved adding time code data to the video, and/or specialized hardware to support the function. The idea of using generic hardware to spool the video to disk as a standard MPEG-2 stream and then use software to calculate offsets, loop for pauses, etc., had not been previously described in any patent application.

The heart of the patent case will likely revolve around whether or not this is, in fact, a new and innovative technology, or an obvious derivavtion of previous implementations. The fact that it achieves the same result is not relevant. The steering linkage example is apt...you can't patent pausing a live video stream, and/or allowing a viewer to freely move with a buffered amount of data, or the creation and maintenence of a circular buffer. However, you very well MAY be able to patent the execution of these things using MPEG encoder chips, IDE hard drives, hand held remote controls, and the packaging of all of these things into a self contained consumer electronics device.

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Old 09-24-2005, 11:41 AM   #175 (Print)
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However, you very well MAY be able to patent the execution of these things using MPEG encoder chips,

But in the case of both E* and D*, the DVR's don't use these chips as they record the satellite data stream directly and don't encode it prior to saving to a disk. A minor point, but possibly a relevant one.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:33 PM   #176 (Print)
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That's great if your are talking about moving FORWARD! The HMC is NOT a step forward, it is a step (at best) sideways. There is NOTHING that the much heralded HMC can do that could not be done with a HDTiVo and some SD DirecTiVos all networked together with HMO, except for multi-unit conflict resolution (assuming such a feature actually is offered between two HMC servers). This is not a difficult feature to add - it would simply require an additional service to poll each DVR for it's ability to record a program and schedule it on the first that responds affirmatively. This is less resource intensive than building a "master" list that knows what every DVR is doing. It would also allow ANY program to be scheduled from ANY DVR in the network.


Your idea of technology advancement is different than mine. For one, your hardware cost for that network is quite high since there is no client/host scenario.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:37 PM   #177 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK

The NDA's I recall said something about not overtly sharing- not discussing publically, not tellign the media, I dont recall any paragraph about tackling anyone that saw my new pda or phone or dvr and tying them up in my basement until the device was realeased.


Who said anything about hiding it? It's quite another issue if your buddy shows up, starts tinkering around specifically to get advance understanding of the interface and features, then posts on a message board that he's done so.

"Please don't mess with that" would seem a sufficient deterant on the part of the NDA signee.

I fully understand the want and desire to get advance info, but to do so at the risk of getting your friend in trouble? Not my cuppa tea.
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Old 09-24-2005, 01:54 PM   #178 (Print)
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Originally Posted by Dan Collins
Firstly, the initial batch of units that would come to be called the R15 arrived at DirecTV in March. They were distributed to inhouse testers in late April and early May, but were basically unusable (too buggy) until Late May/Early June (I received a photo of the R15, with it's rotating blue light, in April, and even mentioned the "pilot light" in a post here, IIRC).

Secondly, TiVo has a great many broad and fundamental patents that cover many key aspects of DVR technology. Whether those patents are enforcable is what the Dish case is all about. If TiVo prevails, they will have shown that their "trick play" patent is enforceable against the company for whom the legal department is treated like a profit center. Every non-TiVo DVR in the US (cable and satellite) will be in violation of this patent. Do not underestimate the import of this case.


The FCC submission suggests May for the rev 1.0 motherboard but I don't know what to read into that. So what's the board rev of this pile sitting in the warehouses?

You are aware that there are countersuits over who owns what DVR technology? I've heard the blanket statements about all things DVR being under analysis, but that is incorrect. There is a small subset of features being challenged, not the DVR concept in general.

I'm sure there will be plenty of press on it in a couple of weeks.

I hope your mistaken about the 6 months of beta on this R15 product. This is an evolutionary product, not something from scratch. That's just horrible time to market.
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Old 09-24-2005, 02:26 PM   #179 (Print)
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So far, no one has been able to come close to TiVo with the exception of UTV. Given the money and expertise MS had to throw at it a viable product was no surprise.

But why has no one else been able to make a good DVR. Yes Moxi comes close, but Motorola and SA are large companies with enough money to develop a good DVR. But for some reason they can't. We all know how E*'s attempt at developing a DVR has gone, so what makes D* think they can do better than TiVo.

My personal opinion is that they know they can't , but they think they can do better than the cablecos or E*. And in reality, that's all they have to do.
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Old 09-24-2005, 08:01 PM   #180 (Print)
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I have 2 HD Tivos and an R10. I've been using some sort of Tivo for over 5 years. To that, the Dish 942 is pretty nice. I dont know about any of the other units, but this one is pretty darn good. It is not a Tivo but it does have a few advantages and disadvantages. If I didnt know TIvo and the 942 was all I had, I would actually be pretty darn happy. I still prefer the HD Tivo but E* did a good job on this unit.
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