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Old 10-06-2005, 06:55 AM   #31 (Print)
beanpoppa
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At first I considered this a deal breaker, but if you are watching two programs, you could just record them both, which would, in effect, buffer them both. I usually do this on my Tivo anyway so that I don't accidentally change the channel and lose the buffer.

I know it's a little kludgy, but it is a workaround. There may be patent issues that they are forced to get around, or maybe they're just lazy. Don't know which.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
This is definitely a deal breaker for me! Why would they design this machine like this? It seems strange that you can record two programs at once but not have cache for each tuner for live TV. Watching two live games at once while not missing a single play is a must for me!

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:45 AM   #32 (Print)
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I wonder that since the new HD DVR will also be based on NDS technology if it will have the same short coming?

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:03 AM   #33 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanpoppa
At first I considered this a deal breaker, but if you are watching two programs, you could just record them both, which would, in effect, buffer them both. I usually do this on my Tivo anyway so that I don't accidentally change the channel and lose the buffer.

I know it's a little kludgy, but it is a workaround. There may be patent issues that they are forced to get around, or maybe they're just lazy. Don't know which.

Not sure if it has been stated, but if you do record these two shows (instead of having dual cache), can you switch between the two of them and is it as simple as it is now? I'm guessing not.

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:53 AM   #34 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
Not sure if it has been stated, but if you do record these two shows (instead of having dual cache), can you switch between the two of them and is it as simple as it is now? I'm guessing not.
No. Once a tuner starts a recording, it becomes "unavailable" to live TV. If both tuners are recording, there is no live TV output at all. The only way to switch between two recordings is equivalent to switching between two previously recorded programs on a Tivo...you have to exit the playback of program 1, which takes you to the Play/Resume menu, back up to the playlist, select the other recording, select play. To switch back, you have to do the same.

IOW, you can not switch between tuners using a swap function, even if the tuners are engaged in recordings that are still in progress.

BTW: On Sky+ DVRs, exiting a recording resets you to the beginning of the recording. So, to resume where you left off, you have to first set a bookmark (another button press or two before you can switch tuners).

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:54 AM   #35 (Print)
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This is going to be a fun review of this unit....

If I send a copy of it to DirecTV... do you think they will blacklist me some more

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:02 AM   #36 (Print)
Dan Collins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanpoppa
At first I considered this a deal breaker, but if you are watching two programs, you could just record them both, which would, in effect, buffer them both. I usually do this on my Tivo anyway so that I don't accidentally change the channel and lose the buffer.

I know it's a little kludgy, but it is a workaround. There may be patent issues that they are forced to get around, or maybe they're just lazy. Don't know which.
It's more a concept thing...the NDS DVR approach (as embodied in the Sky+ DVR and, apparently, the R15) is that the second tuner is really an "auxilliary" tuner, there only to allow you to record something while you watch something live. As has been often observed, TiVos are really optimized around the idea of never watching "live TV."

On NDS DVRs, once Tuner B starts recording a program, switching to it in "Live TV" mode will just present a black screen (hopefully they will add a message telling you that the tuner is currently doing a recording - black screens will just generate a bunch of support calls). If Tuner A and Tuner B are engaged in recordings, there is NO "Live TV" output at all (both tuners return a black screen).

In normal operation, according to the NDS view, you would never really be aware that there are two tuners....you just watch TV, and recordings just happen.

Further in this regard, I seem to remember that at one point, the Sky+ DVRs could not record two things at once....IOW, one tuner was for "live tv" only and the other was for recordings only.

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:11 AM   #37 (Print)
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Can restate the above question....does it have 30 second skip? Or did I miss the answer on that one?
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:14 AM   #38 (Print)
Dan Collins
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According to the beta testers I have communicated with, no...there is no 30-second skip.

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:34 AM   #39 (Print)
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I don't see the big deal that both tuners can't be cached. I RARELY watch live tv, 99% of what I watch is recorded. The 30 second skip wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, but Wishlists are, and since nobody has said if it deals with season pass conflicts like Tivo or not, that's another tun off. Also, I imagine they're going to be like Dish's DVRs and not be upgradable.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:48 AM   #40 (Print)
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Dual Live buffers comes in handy often... During events like football season, baseball games, and other things that just are difficult to watch recorded....

What would be a bigger problem for me is what Dan just said (a few posts back), when you leave a recording, it reverts back to the start of the program... unless you set a bookmark. Unless they make that bookmark... VERY VERY easy to add...

We will know in about 5 weeks...

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:56 AM   #41 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
This is going to be a fun review of this unit....

We'll just have to remember to not kill the messenger.

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Old 10-06-2005, 10:01 AM   #42 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
We'll just have to remember to not kill the messenger.


No, not the messenger, but the geniuses who worked on it are fair game
Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd swear Rupert had Charlie's (Dish Network) guys working on this receiver lol
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:05 AM   #43 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
We'll just have to remember to not kill the messenger.


you guys are so kind...

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Old 10-06-2005, 10:06 AM   #44 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
It's more a concept thing...the NDS DVR approach (as embodied in the Sky+ DVR and, apparently, the R15) is that the second tuner is really an "auxilliary" tuner, there only to allow you to record something while you watch something live. As has been often observed, TiVos are really optimized around the idea of never watching "live TV."

On NDS DVRs, once Tuner B starts recording a program, switching to it in "Live TV" mode will just present a black screen (hopefully they will add a message telling you that the tuner is currently doing a recording - black screens will just generate a bunch of support calls). If Tuner A and Tuner B are engaged in recordings, there is NO "Live TV" output at all (both tuners return a black screen).

In normal operation, according to the NDS view, you would never really be aware that there are two tuners....you just watch TV, and recordings just happen.

Further in this regard, I seem to remember that at one point, the Sky+ DVRs could not record two things at once....IOW, one tuner was for "live tv" only and the other was for recordings only.

Well, this concept, to me, is far inferior to the DTivo! I for one will try to hold further judgement until we get Earl's review, but I am thinking this unit is not for me (which is fine because the wife already reminds me that I have too many toys). I hope Weaknees will still support this ptatform down the road. If not, I will need to learn some Linux for when the HDs quit working.

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Old 10-06-2005, 10:10 AM   #45 (Print)
kturcotte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
Well, this concept, to me, is far inferior to the DTivo! I for one will try to hold further judgement until we get Earl's review, but I am thinking this unit is not for me (which is fine because the wife already reminds me that I have too many toys). I hope Weaknees will still support this ptatform down the road. If not, I will need to learn some Linux for when the HDs quit working.


I agree, I will hold off final judgement until we get a review of the actual released product. I don't really see the need (For me) to get either this or the HD receiver though. I'm watching on a 24" TV, might upgrade to a 27" next year, so my SD DirecTivos are just fine. They ONLY thing that does interest me in the new units is the networking, but of course,I can just get a CD from PTVnet and do that with my current receivers.
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:11 AM   #46 (Print)
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What about the guide...Will the TiVo grid or similar be available on the NDS version of DVR? If not..tehre's another dealbreaker!! Either way you look at it the development team and designers seem fairly lost and out of touch with most end users likes and dislikes. This forum only represents a small portion of these users but the concerns voiced here are across the entire spectrum so I don't think that it's just a bunch of DVR geeks spouting off, but rather some legitimate feedback that should be at least considered. That being said...If they've come this far without listening they probably aren't going to switch gears at this point. even though it appears they can;t get it out of first gear!!
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Old 10-06-2005, 10:59 AM   #47 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelersFan
This is definitely a deal breaker for me! Why would they design this machine like this? It seems strange that you can record two programs at once but not have cache for each tuner for live TV. Watching two live games at once while not missing a single play is a must for me!


This is a deal breaker for me, also. They can keep their 90 min buffer, I'll stick with 2 30min buffers.
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:01 AM   #48 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
... As has been often observed, TiVos are really optimized around the idea of never watching "live TV."

Well, Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual seems to agree with you, as he said in this article: "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (but it's) not so great for live TV".

With Chase Carey saying a few times in the last directv conference call that they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience", it makes you wonder how this "swap the tuners, loose the buffer" item got through the design approval stage.

I'm in the same boat as kturcotte though, I RARELY watch live tv, 99% of what I watch is recorded. With directv's apparent push on "improving the live tv viewing experience", they seem to be touting a way of watching tv that I've left behind years ago.

Watching live tv is just not "TV My Way" anymore.

btw, where's CrazyFred?
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:03 AM   #49 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
On NDS DVRs, once Tuner B starts recording a program, switching to it in "Live TV" mode will just present a black screen (hopefully they will add a message telling you that the tuner is currently doing a recording - black screens will just generate a bunch of support calls). If Tuner A and Tuner B are engaged in recordings, there is NO "Live TV" output at all (both tuners return a black screen).


This makes no sense to me? Who is the rocket scientist that thought this one up?
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:17 AM   #50 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoak
Well, Directv's Chief Technology Officer Romulo Pontual seems to agree with you, as he said in this article: "(TiVo) is a great interface for watching what's been recorded, (but it's) not so great for live TV".

With Chase Carey saying a few times in the last directv conference call that they're all about "improving the live tv viewing experience", it makes you wonder how this "swap the tuners, loose the buffer" item got through the design approval stage.

I'm in the same boat as kturcotte though, I RARELY watch live tv, 99% of what I watch is recorded. With directv's apparent push on "improving the live tv viewing experience", they seem to be touting a way of watching tv that I've left behind years ago.

Watching live tv is just not "TV My Way" anymore.

btw, where's CrazyFred?

There it is - they don't want us to skip commercials! What do you guys think?

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Old 10-06-2005, 11:39 AM   #51 (Print)
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"On NDS DVRs, once Tuner B starts recording a program, switching to it in "Live TV" mode will just present a black screen (hopefully they will add a message telling you that the tuner is currently doing a recording - black screens will just generate a bunch of support calls). If Tuner A and Tuner B are engaged in recordings, there is NO "Live TV" output at all (both tuners return a black screen)."


please tell me that while it is recording 2 shows at once I can still replay either show back from any point i want.
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Old 10-06-2005, 11:50 AM   #52 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summerall
"On NDS DVRs, once Tuner B starts recording a program, switching to it in "Live TV" mode will just present a black screen (hopefully they will add a message telling you that the tuner is currently doing a recording - black screens will just generate a bunch of support calls). If Tuner A and Tuner B are engaged in recordings, there is NO "Live TV" output at all (both tuners return a black screen)."


please tell me that while it is recording 2 shows at once I can still replay either show back from any point i want.



According to Dan's and Crazy's reports....
You will need to set a bookmark, before you leave that program (when switching to the other)... Then go through the menu system to go to the other recorded program... And bookmark, go back... to go back to the other (via the menu)

So... Yes, but you have to remember to set a bookmark.

This is based on the reports...

We will know more in about 4-5 weeks.

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Old 10-06-2005, 12:02 PM   #53 (Print)
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I see no reason why that when you are recording two shows you can't watch one of them live.
If for no other reason than to verify that it is recording the show you want.
Not having 30s skip is not a deal breaker, but the lack of dual tuner buffering is.

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Old 10-06-2005, 12:08 PM   #54 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimSpence
I see no reason why that when you are recording two shows you can't watch one of them live.
If for no other reason than to verify that it is recording the show you want.
Not having 30s skip is not a deal breaker, but the lack of dual tuner buffering is.


Those are my sentiments exactly. The HD Tivo was made for watching 2 football games at once. I can watch every play of both games in the same time as 1 football game is played.
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Old 10-06-2005, 12:48 PM   #55 (Print)
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Big Grin Rofl

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
This is going to be a fun review of this unit....

If I send a copy of it to DirecTV... do you think they will blacklist me some more

ROFL
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Old 10-06-2005, 01:04 PM   #56 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
According to the beta testers I have communicated with, no...there is no 30-second skip.


I'll never own one. When the commitment is up and the MPEG2 stream is gone, it's over to Dish Network. Given that the only alternative is the reduced picture quality and $13/mo for each standalone, that's the only alternative left (cable companies need not apply!).

thanks!
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Old 10-06-2005, 02:44 PM   #57 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebonovic
According to Dan's and Crazy's reports....
You will need to set a bookmark, before you leave that program (when switching to the other)... Then go through the menu system to go to the other recorded program... And bookmark, go back... to go back to the other (via the menu)

So... Yes, but you have to remember to set a bookmark.

This is based on the reports...

We will know more in about 4-5 weeks.
Keep in mind, this is a hybrid of two different reports. I've used Sky+ DVRs while in the UK and they don't remember where you left off in a recording - IOW, when you leave, you come back to the beginning, and have to FFWD to where you left off. The bookmarks are a feature reported on the R15s. It seems to me that bookmarks is the kind of feature that would be added to overcome the inability to record an offset in a recording as part of the recording itself - you need to explicitly tell the DVR that you want to return to a given point.

All that being said, it is possible that the R15 COULD record an automatic bookmark when you exit a recording. I just don't have that level of detail in my reports.

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Old 10-06-2005, 03:17 PM   #58 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
All that being said, it is possible that the R15 COULD record an automatic bookmark when you exit a recording. I just don't have that level of detail in my reports.


Thanks for the correction, I will make a mental note/adjustment on that for future posts.

Earl

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Old 10-06-2005, 03:35 PM   #59 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanpoppa
At first I considered this a deal breaker, but if you are watching two programs, you could just record them both, which would, in effect, buffer them both. I usually do this on my Tivo anyway so that I don't accidentally change the channel and lose the buffer.

I know it's a little kludgy, but it is a workaround. There may be patent issues that they are forced to get around, or maybe they're just lazy. Don't know which.



The question is, can you switch tuners with the touch of a button between two recordings or do you have to go thru the R15's version of the Now Playing list. That would really make watching multiple football games a pain.


Edit: Sorry, already asked and answered.

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Old 10-06-2005, 04:59 PM   #60 (Print)
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i hope that the reported release date is not set back again so that earl may get his review done for us, cause all this speculation is driving me nuts

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