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Old 10-10-2005, 04:52 PM   #151 (Print)
Kevin L
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins
It's more like nearly 15 million DirecTV subscribers, but I won't quibble over a few hundred thousand. This falls under the category in my previous post of....

"About 13% of DirecTV subscribers own at least one DirecTiVo"

So if we use your numbers...

About 14% of DirecTV subscribers own at least one DirecTiVo

14% is just about DirecTV's share of the total multi-channel provider market. So, if TiVo owners represent an insignificant portion of DirecTV's customers, then DirecTV represents an insignificant portion of the total subscription TV market.

Are you SURE that is what you mean to say?
If we really want to talk about a small number, it's the number of people that hack their DVRs. We all bitch and moan and threaten and say what idiots DirecTV is for dropping TiVo and that they are going to lose a ton of subscribers. It's just not going to happen. We are not anywhere near representative of DirecTV's subscriber base, and if we all left, it would have minimal impact. This doesn't mean that DirecTV wants to lose us, it's just that we do not have a lot of clout.

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Old 10-10-2005, 06:48 PM   #152 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin L
If we really want to talk about a small number, it's the number of people that hack their DVRs. We all bitch and moan and threaten and say what idiots DirecTV is for dropping TiVo and that they are going to lose a ton of subscribers. It's just not going to happen. We are not anywhere near representative of DirecTV's subscriber base, and if we all left, it would have minimal impact. This doesn't mean that DirecTV wants to lose us, it's just that we do not have a lot of clout.
I dont Know about that If persay there are 1000 of us on the board If we all called at the same time on the same day it might have an impact. I think that CS would take note of the phenomenon. Mabye not enough to change policy but it might be enough to make the higher ups start thinking!

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Old 10-10-2005, 06:54 PM   #153 (Print)
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Here's the other issue. In reading these posts, there's a sector of this community that doesn't care if TiVo is replaced. Though not the majority, the real TiVo fanatics or diehards are not the majority either. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to get 1,000 to call on cue.

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Old 10-10-2005, 07:00 PM   #154 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin L
Here's the other issue. In reading these posts, there's a sector of this community that doesn't care if TiVo is replaced. Though not the majority, the real TiVo fanatics or diehards are not the majority either. I'd say you'd be hard pressed to get 1,000 to call on cue.


Not really a problem. Even if you DID get 1000 callers, 1000 is a very small percentage of however many million customers D* has now. It's probably a very small percentage of DTiVo owners. Certainly not enough to make anyone "sit up and listen".

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Old 10-10-2005, 07:16 PM   #155 (Print)
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I disagree that the casual user won't want live tuners while something is recording.

A lot of people still watch things live, although they probably set up season passes to cover themselves if they're not home.

So I have a season pass to Lost, and i turn my TV on at 7:58 on ABC because I am home, and at 8:00 my screen goes blank?

Isn't this how it reads, while recording something there is no live version of it, you have to go into the menus to watch it from the playlist?

That doesn't seem like something that the average consumer is going to like, there screen going blank right when their show starts, and having to go through the menus to start it up.

-smak-

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Old 10-10-2005, 07:22 PM   #156 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bob Boy
I dont Know about that If persay there are 1000 of us on the board If we all called at the same time on the same day it might have an impact. I think that CS would take note of the phenomenon. Mabye not enough to change policy but it might be enough to make the higher ups start thinking!

I'm willing to bet that the people on this board that don't care ARE the majority. It's just usually the people that are unhappy are the most vocal. I think we've had a few polls re: HMO and thinfs like this in the past... and most come up with the "I don't care option."
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Old 10-10-2005, 09:30 PM   #157 (Print)
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What in the hell are you talking about? There is no MPEG4 Tivo. I will be forced to switch at some point. I will be forced into a new platform whether I want it or not. They should have offered a MPEG4 Tivo if they were going to screw with success this much. I could easily get another 10 years out of a HDTivo with MPEG4 if they don't mess with anything else that would make it obsolete. But the idiots won't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scopeman
If all of us 2.3m DTivo user paid that extra $1/month DTV would get - $2.3M. Wow. You could develop an MPG4 HD DTivo with networking and Tivo2Go with $2.3M.

NOT.

DTV is going to offer a new DVR to new customers and leave the old Tivo users alone. They have no incentive to bother us - we're easy money, every month. We have very low churn rates. We like our hardware.

But new owners of the R15 will also like it for the same reason that cable co DVR users like those ones - DVR is cool, even if it is a weak design.

So the new R15 customers will also lke their hardware, will also have low churn, and will also be easy money each month. But the acquisition costs will be substantially below the current $650 per customer, and the money profits will be slightly higher.

From the DTV perspective the NDS DVR might not be perfect but it is OPTIMAL.

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Old 10-11-2005, 05:19 AM   #158 (Print)
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Interesting point made on this thread.
I've been a TiVomaniac since 30 minutes after my hughes gxebot (ser 1) came to life.
Over the years I've planned to hack it or upgrade it but the darn thing worked so good all I ever did was take it apart to dust it and clean the connections to the HD.
I thought about playing around with the 30 sec skip feature but found double FF to work well for me although lately it seems it doesn't always roll back to where I punch the play button (ver 3.10c I think is the os).
Lately I've been thinking of upgrading as it seems to be showing some signs of age, getting a lot of digital break up this last week on my locals (but they seemed fine on a plain directv receiver).
So in reading the reviews of R15 I've been surprised at the vehemence of the community here as over the years you all have always seemed to cover the good & bad points of the coming products. Then that post on this thread stating to the effect 'tivo community WITH d*. AH! I get it now. While I love my current TiVo box I have to say I wouldn't leave D* over their no longer carrying that brand of DVR.

I thank those of you who have provided useful info on the R15, it kept me from calling up D* and having them ship me out a new one asap even though eventually I'll probably end up with one.

I know this is a long shot but if someone knows a more appropriate forum/website to discuss D* dvr's if you could PM me the address I would appreciate it.

I'll still consider myself a member of this community until my Hughes box melts down.

Here's to hoping some competition from BOTH companies gets us a better product overall.

Dan.
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Old 10-11-2005, 10:31 AM   #159 (Print)
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I only wish. But since DirecTV is a closed platform, there really is no competition. We have to use whatever DVR they come up with. And I don't think there are enough people that are going to appreciate the differences in the UI, that it is going to be on DirecTV's radar as a competitive disadvantage to have an inferior UI. I think they are going to hear from people that had Tivo and are forced to give it up, but there is going to be a good chunk of that group that are "tied" to DirecTV for other reasons.

At least in SD a SD standalone Tivo was an option, but in HD there is no way to record the stream without the DirecTV proprietary hardware.

And all this completely ignores the patent issues and design methodology differences that any two competing platforms are going to have. For NDS to license patents from Tivo that don't have to do with truly core functionality is highly unlikely without a major backlash from users.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanTanna
Here's to hoping some competition from BOTH companies gets us a better product overall.

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Old 10-11-2005, 10:46 AM   #160 (Print)
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There is competition, Matt, just not within DirecTV. DirecTV has to be aware of what others are doing and if it gains the competition and edge. If DirecTV starts to see a lot of defections because of their DVR, they'll have to improve it if they want to stop the flow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by turls
I only wish. But since DirecTV is a closed platform, there really is no competition. We have to use whatever DVR they come up with. And I don't think there are enough people that are going to appreciate the differences in the UI, that it is going to be on DirecTV's radar as a competitive disadvantage to have an inferior UI. I think they are going to hear from people that had Tivo and are forced to give it up, but there is going to be a good chunk of that group that are "tied" to DirecTV for other reasons.

At least in SD a SD standalone Tivo was an option, but in HD there is no way to record the stream without the DirecTV proprietary hardware.

And all this completely ignores the patent issues and design methodology differences that any two competing platforms are going to have. For NDS to license patents from Tivo that don't have to do with truly core functionality is highly unlikely without a major backlash from users.

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Old 10-11-2005, 10:53 AM   #161 (Print)
turls
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As I mentioned, this isn't going to be on their radar. It isn't going to be bad enough to cause enough defections to notice. The general populace seems to be too stupid to even grasp the concept of why they would want to own a DVR, so they sure won't know the difference between having x feature vs. not having it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin L
There is competition, Matt, just not within DirecTV. DirecTV has to be aware of what others are doing and if it gains the competition and edge. If DirecTV starts to see a lot of defections because of their DVR, they'll have to improve it if they want to stop the flow.

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Old 10-11-2005, 10:59 AM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turls
As I mentioned, this isn't going to be on their radar. It isn't going to be bad enough to cause enough defections to notice. The general populace seems to be too stupid to even grasp the concept of why they would want to own a DVR, so they sure won't know the difference between having x feature vs. not having it.
I agree. It's not likely going to be feature competition as much as it's reliability. I know I left Dish because I was sick of the bugs in the DishPlayer, and I heard DirecTV DVRs were much more reliable. If the new DVRs from DirecTV are bug-ridden, and it would have to be in areas like missing recordings or deleting recordings, then even the average user will start to look elsewhere. I know I would.

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Old 10-11-2005, 04:50 PM   #163 (Print)
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by smak
I disagree that the casual user won't want live tuners while something is recording.

A lot of people still watch things live, although they probably set up season passes to cover themselves if they're not home.

So I have a season pass to Lost, and i turn my TV on at 7:58 on ABC because I am home, and at 8:00 my screen goes blank?

Isn't this how it reads, while recording something there is no live version of it, you have to go into the menus to watch it from the playlist?

I agree; this just seems unimaginably boneheaded. The unit is clearly capable of playing the show while it records—what is the point of blacking out the screen and making you select it from a separate menu?

I often like to watch my favorite shows when they come on, and someone new to DVRs is probably going to spend 90% of their time watching shows live.

7:55
"C'mon, kids, let's gather around to watch Lost!"

8:00 (screen goes black without warning)
"What the *@%!?"

8:01 (frantically pushing buttons, checking cables)
"Stupid #@%#% DVR!"

8:05 (tries to change channel, gets another black screen)
"#%#it, what happened to Veronica Mars?!?"

8:10 (on the line with DirecTV technical support)
"…We're sorry; due to higher-than-expected call volume related to the new DirecTV DVR, your wait time may be up to: 7 hours."
"#!$%@!"

…aaaand repeat every time someone tries to watch a recording show live. How nice.

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Old 10-11-2005, 05:00 PM   #164 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designbot
I agree; this just seems unimaginably boneheaded. The unit is clearly capable of playing the show while it records—what is the point of blacking out the screen and making you select it from a separate menu?

I often like to watch my favorite shows when they come on, and someone new to DVRs is probably going to spend 90% of their time watching shows live.

7:55
"C'mon, kids, let's gather around to watch Lost!"

8:00 (screen goes black without warning)
"What the *@%!?"

8:01 (frantically pushing buttons, checking cables)
"Stupid #@%#% DVR!"

8:05 (tries to change channel, gets another black screen)
"#%#it, what happened to Veronica Mars?!?"

8:10 (on the line with DirecTV technical support)
"…We're sorry; due to higher-than-expected call volume related to the new DirecTV DVR, your wait time may be up to: 7 hours."
"#!$%@!"

…aaaand repeat every time someone tries to watch a recording show live. How nice.


It just simply won't happen. You guys are ridiculous.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:03 PM   #165 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignDawg
It just simply won't happen. You guys are ridiculous.

I would hope that you're right, but the manual and this guy's personal experience both imply otherwise.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:05 PM   #166 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignDawg
It just simply won't happen. You guys are ridiculous.


Your joking right. People are utter MORONS when it comes to Technology. If you think TiVo get's a lot of calls just wait when this thing comes out.
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Old 10-11-2005, 05:29 PM   #167 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeckner
That is a great idea, since my Three DirecTiVos are hacked for MRV, I should be able to install a SA TiVo and transfer my shows to it and use TiVo to Go to legally download them and burn them if I like. This is a great idea, and I can even buy the smallest SA TiVo. It also gives me far more options for the future, like TiVo VOD and transfers throughout the house.

Of course, I should ask if anyone has done this before. My current five and half year old hacked SA TiVo, a SONY SVR-2000, does not have network support, but it is nearing it's useful lifespan, so a replacement is likely anyway.

Thanks so very much for the idea.


I don't think it will work like your thinking...

To enable MRV on the DirecTiVo's you disable encryption. So to transfer shows to a 7.2 SA TiVo you will have to hack it and disable encryption on it as well. So I think if you disable encryption on the SA TiVo TiVo2Go won't work.

But Tivo2Go functionality is already available on your DirecTiVo's so I don't know why you would bother with all of this in the first place..

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Old 10-11-2005, 05:40 PM   #168 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
I don't think it will work like your thinking...

To enable MRV on the DirecTiVo's you disable encryption. So to transfer shows to a 7.2 SA TiVo you will have to hack it and disable encryption on it as well. So I think if you disable encryption on the SA TiVo TiVo2Go won't work.

But Tivo2Go functionality is already available on your DirecTiVo's so I don't know why you would bother with all of this in the first place..

When did this happen. Last night in the middle of the night or are reffering to hacking.. Tivo to go Is NOT avialable On directivo stock units. I doubt if it ever will due to the implications of transferring a digital picture digitaly to a pc. This is why the content providers dont like tivo. We skip their commercials and we want to take the stuff with us. anywhere we go. Heaven forbid. We might stop going to movies and renting dvds. (Sarcasm)

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Old 10-11-2005, 06:20 PM   #169 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designbot
I agree; this just seems unimaginably boneheaded. The unit is clearly capable of playing the show while it records—what is the point of blacking out the screen and making you select it from a separate menu?

My guess would be TiVo has a pretty secure patent on that feature. So D*, as do the cable DVR's, make you go to the NPL to start the program.
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Old 10-11-2005, 06:39 PM   #170 (Print)
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How do you manage conflicts? Is there something like the Season Pass Manager?

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Old 10-11-2005, 06:49 PM   #171 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
My guess would be TiVo has a pretty secure patent on that feature. So D*, as do the cable DVR's, make you go to the NPL to start the program.

It wouldn't be the dumbest patent I've ever seen, but I don't see how TiVo could patent the concept of watching a show while you record it—you've always been able to do that with a VCR, and you can do it with these other DVR's just by jumping through menu hoops. I don't see how making it inconvenient but still possible gets you out of a patent conflict.

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Old 10-11-2005, 07:02 PM   #172 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herdfan
My guess would be TiVo has a pretty secure patent on that feature. So D*, as do the cable DVR's, make you go to the NPL to start the program.

No. UltimateTV has no such limitation.
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Old 10-11-2005, 10:45 PM   #173 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bob Boy
When did this happen. Last night in the middle of the night or are reffering to hacking.. Tivo to go Is NOT avialable On directivo stock units. I doubt if it ever will due to the implications of transferring a digital picture digitaly to a pc. This is why the content providers dont like tivo. We skip their commercials and we want to take the stuff with us. anywhere we go. Heaven forbid. We might stop going to movies and renting dvds. (Sarcasm)


I said Tivo2Go functionality, not Tivo2go.. there is other softwarae that does the same thing, if not better...

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Old 10-11-2005, 11:02 PM   #174 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Collins

In other words, it is not based upon ANY rational business logic - it is based simply on the natural bias of a few executives towards products for which they were responsible.



I don't see how you can say this or actually believe it. If my company were writing Tivo a check for millions of dollars every month and I did nothing to stop it, I would get fired. Especially when "everyone" believes that figure is only going to go up in the future. Even if DirectTV negotiated a deal for less than $1/month per subscriber the total number of subscriber's with Tivos would still go up faster. If they did nothing they would still be writing Tivo a bigger check every month going forward.

But even more important than doing it for the $$$'s is making the change to gain better control over their end user experience. DirecTV competes with several other providers. If Tivo (a company that still cannot generate a consistent profit) suddenly went belly up next year and DirecTV had done nothing, DirecTV would be screwed.

Or what if Tivo decided to spend all their engineering effort on their SA Tivo or maybe the Comcast Tivo software. Once again DirecTV would be screwed.

You can say a lot of things about the decision makers at DirecTV, but to say they did this for no valid business reason is absurd. If they hadn't made this change I would consider them negligent.
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Old 10-12-2005, 09:48 AM   #175 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ufo4sale
Your joking right. People are utter MORONS when it comes to Technology. If you think TiVo get's a lot of calls just wait when this thing comes out.


No. I know people are morons. But when you turn on the TV, and it starts recording the channel you are watching, IT IS NOT GOING TO black out the screen. Mark my words. On this day, Wednesday, 10/12/05, I said IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. Bookmark this thread. Go ahead and do it. You guys kill me.

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Old 10-12-2005, 10:07 AM   #176 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DesignDawg
No. UltimateTV has no such limitation.


TiVo's patent was only pending when UltimateTV was created.

The legal landscape has shifted quite a bit since then.
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:12 AM   #177 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
I said Tivo2Go functionality, not Tivo2go.. there is other softwarae that does the same thing, if not better...
what is the software ?i would like to use this

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Old 10-12-2005, 10:13 AM   #178 (Print)
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That's BS. D* writes checks every month to Tribune for guide data, content providers for their channels, resellers/installers for their services.... All of which are core to their business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiDefGator
I don't see how you can say this or actually believe it. If my company were writing Tivo a check for millions of dollars every month and I did nothing to stop it, I would get fired. Especially when "everyone" believes that figure is only going to go up in the future. Even if DirectTV negotiated a deal for less than $1/month per subscriber the total number of subscriber's with Tivos would still go up faster. If they did nothing they would still be writing Tivo a bigger check every month going forward.

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Old 10-12-2005, 10:25 AM   #179 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by designbot
It wouldn't be the dumbest patent I've ever seen, but I don't see how TiVo could patent the concept of watching a show while you record it—you've always been able to do that with a VCR,

I would say it is the seamless difference between Live TV and recording. For example, if you are watching a show through a VCR and decide 30 minutes in you want to record it, with a VCR you get from that point on. The Tivo will give you everything in the buffer as well. A very handy feature.

TiVo has a lot of patents.
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:30 AM   #180 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiDefGator
But even more important than doing it for the $$$'s is making the change to gain better control over their end user experience. DirecTV competes with several other providers. If Tivo (a company that still cannot generate a consistent profit) suddenly went belly up next year and DirecTV had done nothing, DirecTV would be screwed.

Or what if Tivo decided to spend all their engineering effort on their SA Tivo or maybe the Comcast Tivo software. Once again DirecTV would be screwed.
I've made this same argument before. This is an important consideration, especially given that TiVo is a small company that doesn't always have the best financials. They could go out of business tomorrow, and like you said, DirecTV would be screwed.

It's not the $1.13/month, as the inhouse development is likely to cost as much. It's a matter of having control over an important part of their business.

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