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Old 10-06-2005, 06:38 AM   #151 (Print)
LordKronos
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Well, it looks like theres going to be some sort of video on that hanso site:

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/images/ref_video.gif

http://www.thehansofoundation.org/i...placeholder.gif
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:44 AM   #152 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spikedavis
I gotta say I really liked Desmond. Too bad he's not sticking around.
Well, he can't really go that far.
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:47 AM   #153 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
What's the chance that Helen is another plant from Locke's father, but to get him to leave him alone this time?


I think this is unlikely -- otherwise, I don't think Locke would be a Man of Faith.
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:48 AM   #154 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
So, polar bears were used in Dharma Initiative zoology experiments. That's a reason for the bear to be on the island without Walt conjuring it.
Yup, I've never bought the "Walt conjured it" idea. Especially when Sayid was being held captive by Rousseau in her little dwelling and they heard a loud ruckus outside. When asked what the noise was, she said something like "if we're lucky it's just the bears". It hinted at bears being something that inhabits the island and that she's had to deal with in the past.

EDIT: wait, what was Rousseau's occupation again? Perhaps she was working for the Hanso foundation?
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Old 10-06-2005, 06:58 AM   #155 (Print)
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Nobody has mentioned the guy that funded the whole experiment from the video. They made him look sinister didn't they? And he owened a munitions company or something?

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:05 AM   #156 (Print)
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Hurley learns the Numbers

I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet, but remember how Hurley learned the Numbers from that guy in the mental institution (who repeated them over and over)?

Maybe he is an escapee/ex-guy-who-lived-in-bunker from this crazy Dharma project. I know I'd be repeating those numbers over and over in my head if I had to enter them into a computer 13 times every day.
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:12 AM   #157 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannister80
I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet, but remember how Hurley learned the Numbers from that guy in the mental institution (who repeated them over and over)?

Maybe he is an escapee/ex-guy-who-lived-in-bunker from this crazy Dharma project. I know I'd be repeating those numbers over and over in my head if I had to enter them into a computer 13 times every day.


This was mentioned in last weeks thread.

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:21 AM   #158 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getbak
Lost-Media.com has its usual HD screen grabs up...

Is this what you're looking for? http://lost-media.com/modules/coppe...tion-cap321.jpg

It doesn't look like anyone we've seen before.

I don't recognize the city's skyline either, although, the buildings in the upper right look like they could be the buildings in this picture (which are in Honolulu): http://www.positive-inside.de/Fotog...mmerung-800.jpg



Looked like Sydney to me. That white funky building is in the left of the picture (opera house? Sorry, I don't know my famous buildings)
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:22 AM   #159 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martha
I was telling Jack at the end, "Don't push the button!"

How cool was it that Hurley gave him the OK with the wrong numbers? I was so hoping Locke would hit it just to see what happened.

What a load of crap. I can't believe Desmond has been pushing that button for the past however many years.


And why wouldn't you just have the number written down on the desk or something? At work, half the people have their passwords written down in plain view.

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:26 AM   #160 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaddayaddayadda
I don't understand why people think Ana Lucia is part of the others instead of thinking that the people they think are the "others" are the other survivors of the tail section who went Lord of the Flies on their side of the island?


That totally whay I though. My theory is that the people that captured Jin, Michael, and Sawyer are the other survivors from flight 815. Perhaps they have had run-ins with the REAL "others" so they have been fighting with them all along. Then when "our survivors" showed up, they tail survivors thought they may be the "others" so they attacked and captured them. Then they planted Ana Lucia to see what she could find out.

When she climbed out of the pit, the guy asked her, "What happened? Who are they?"

I think that once they find out they are all from flight 815, they will team up against the REAL "others".

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:35 AM   #161 (Print)
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To add a little levity back into this thread, and in light of my beloved Sox falling back 0-2, I followed a link in the thread about the numbers as coordinates and found this slightly amusing picture of Right Field at Fenway, with a few of the retired numbers adjusted. The real ones are Joe Cronin (4), Yaz (8), and Jackie Robinson (42). Still, quite humorous.


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Old 10-06-2005, 07:35 AM   #162 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markz

I think that once they find out they are all from flight 815, they will team up against the REAL "others".


If there are any real others. What if the Others is just a sort of mythology passed from inhabitant to inhabitant, kind of like the number pushing?

Would it be possible that everyone on the island is somehow involved in these phsychological expirements? Not sure how they could set the plane crash thing up though, unless they are all living in some artificial reality a la The Matrix or maybe something along the lines of Total Recall.

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:37 AM   #163 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee L
If there are any real others. What if the Others is just a sort of mythology passed from inhabitant to inhabitant, kind of like the number pushing?

Would it be possible that everyone on the island is somehow involved in these phsychological expirements? Not sure how they could set the plane crash thing up though, unless they are all living in some artificial reality a la The Matrix or maybe something along the lines of Total Recall.


And while we are thinking of sci-fi movies, when Desmond started running out of the bunker and into the woods, it made me think of The Running Man.

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Old 10-06-2005, 07:43 AM   #164 (Print)
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One other idea about why the tail section group turned so savage so quickly.

Remember that Ethan had infiltrated Jacks group, posing as one of the crash survivors. While he was there, he started to cause trouble...attacking Claire, which lead to A fight between Jack and Clair when he didn't believe her. Ethan was starting to stir the pot, but then Hurley came up with the manifest idea and they figured out Ethan was the one responsible. Even when they knew it was Ethan, how much fear and panic was there. Now image what it would have been like had they NOT figured out it was him. I mean, even without the outside interference, look how heated it got in jacks group: Micheal beating up Jin, Sayid stabbing Sawyer, etc.

So imagine that someone from Ethan's group (the others? the researchers?) had infiltrated the tail section group and managed to stir the pot without being discovered. Those people could lose their civility really fast.

Last edited by LordKronos : 10-06-2005 at 07:50 AM.
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:46 AM   #165 (Print)
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Aren't the others the ones who took walt?
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Old 10-06-2005, 07:49 AM   #166 (Print)
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Back to the surprise in next week's preview...

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

I initially had the same reaction all of you did at hearing Jin speak English. But then I wondered if that wasn't a scene from the show, but rather a promo by the actor - what he said, "Everything is going to change" sounded more like a catchphrase or soundbite, a promo for the show, which any of the actors could have said. (Although picking him seems odd...). So it may be outside the show's continuity.

I find it difficult to believe that he's somehow involved with the island's shenanigans. I don't think he'd be in such a rush to get off the island, leaving Sun alone - particularly if he knew something that could serve to protect her. And I think that he'd use a bit more English - that is, pretend to pick it up faster - given the situation and his friendship with Michael.


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Old 10-06-2005, 08:03 AM   #167 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Daddy
Back to the surprise in next week's preview...

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

I initially had the same reaction all of you did at hearing Jin speak English. But then I wondered if that wasn't a scene from the show, but rather a promo by the actor - what he said, "Everything is going to change" sounded more like a catchphrase or soundbite, a promo for the show, which any of the actors could have said. (Although picking him seems odd...). So it may be outside the show's continuity.




Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

I wish I could remember what he said during the Monday Night Football lead in for the Cowboys-Redskins game.

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:29 AM   #168 (Print)
markz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclark11
Aren't the others the ones who took walt?


I think there ARE "others", but that the group that captured Jin, Michael, & Sawyer are not them.

I think that you are right about the "others" being the ones that took Walt.

The group with Ana Lucia are the "udders". That's what Jin said anyway!

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Old 10-06-2005, 08:53 AM   #169 (Print)
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Also remember that "our" survivors have had a few savage turns themselves (i.e., torturing Sawyer, Locke clocking Sayid on the head, etc.). We're assuming that this other group is "savage," based on their dress and their actions. Their clothes can be easily explained (none of the luggage survived/they have nothing left to wear), and they may have reacted with such violence due to their conflicts with the Others.

I guess my point is that we don't really know how "savage" they are -- they could just be protecting themselves.
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:56 AM   #170 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee L
I hear they make a good sword.


Nice reference!

No one has been talking about the nanoprobe theory for awhile here, but I thought that might be what the real experiment is. Typing in the code keeps the magnet on, so the probes can't get off of the island. The probes are small enough to infect a person, possibly causing good (fixing Locke's legs), or bad, driving the "Others" nuts or killing them. Plus, the probes can swarm into a black cloud like we saw when Locke was dragged down the hole by the monster.
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:57 AM   #171 (Print)
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Addiction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee L
I hear they make a good sword.


Interesting episode. I kept thinking about the expirements (I assume they were real) where they take monkeys and spray them with water whenever they try to get a reward. THen one by one, they switch out monkeys with new ones and the old monkeys beat the new one each time they try for a reward since they used to get sprayed. Eventually you can have all new monkeys and they still beat each other.

Everyone is doing things just because they have been done that way before.



Taken together, Locke's flashbacks and the training film suggest clearly to me that the island is in part a psychological experiment.

I saw this episode as a meditation on addiction.

In the training film, the Doctor mentions BF Skinner, the psychologist who came up with the idea of operant conditioning. Experimentally, this largely meant rats being trained to push a button to either receive a reward or avoid a punishment. In some experiments, rats would keep pushing a button to the point of starving to death rather than missing a button push (this is in experiments where an electrode would shock the addiction/pleasure center of the brain when the button was pushed).

Clearly with 2 people around, this task wouldn't have been too bad, but to require one person to do it alone for years would be crazy-making. I assume the funding ran out and they abandoned the island, somehow forgetting the people in the bunker.

The training film does not specify the consequences of not pushing the button. It is left as an urgent but vague threat left to the button-pusher's imagination. This is a classic psych experiment set-up.

Locke was addicted to his grief about being abandoned and wronged. He listened to his own mental "tapes" over and over ("we'll have to watch that again"), and kept pushing his own button by stalking his deadbeat dad. He's been looking for the right button of redemption to push for years. Now, to me, his "faith" looks like the hollow shell of addiction.

I think the mental patient Hurley met who gave him the numbers was an escapee from the hatch. The partner of the guy that Desmond met was unaccounted for. Hurley used the numbers to gamble (another addiction) and "won" but "lost." These numbers ultimately led Hurley back to the hatch--giving an explanation of how a seemingly normal guy like Hurley was sucked into this situation.

I believe that if they don't push the button, maybe the island will be destroyed, but that they'll be led to a better place. But it is human nature to cling to the hell we do know rather than the possible redemption that is out of our control.

I will freely admit that this show has "pushed my buttons" in a way that no other TV program ever has. Thank you to the writers and cast for giving us so much to analyze!
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Old 10-06-2005, 08:59 AM   #172 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mask2343
Nobody has mentioned the guy that funded the whole experiment from the video. They made him look sinister didn't they? And he owened a munitions company or something?


To me, in the brief moment they showed him, he looked like Locke's father.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:27 AM   #173 (Print)
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I read Locke's backstory differently. Things to observe about Locke last night:

- He went to the meetings week after week, without having gained anything from it or even saying anything for the first few months.

- He went to his father's house and sat there, virtually night after night. Even when confronted by the father, and later by Katie Segal, about it, he could not stop himself from this behavior.

- His first reaction to the film was that they needed to "watch it again".

To me, this episode shows that Locke is very capable of extreme REPETITIOUS (practically ADDICTIVE) BEHAVIOR. He is the perfect type of person, built on faith and pattern, to sit there and type in the code every 108 minutes. Locke insists he was brought to the island to fulfill his destiny; no one said that everyone's destiny is so grand. Some folks are just destined to be in middle management .. or button pushers.

Oh and I can't believe no one's mentioned the guy in the video (in the office building) kinda looked like Locke's dad.

EDIT: As I typed this, it appears that mojomom touched on some of the same stuff.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:31 AM   #174 (Print)
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Something about Jack's behavior last night was off. It seemed a bit out of character for him to just close the door on Locke and walk away.

And WTF? There's a door to the outside? Where is it? No one's seen it? Why does it say quarantine on the inside of the hatch, if Desmond could just walk out the door at any time?

And apparently he does walk out the door sometimes. He just has to be back in 108 minutes.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:31 AM   #175 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lannister80
I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet, but remember how Hurley learned the Numbers from that guy in the mental institution (who repeated them over and over)?

Maybe he is an escapee/ex-guy-who-lived-in-bunker from this crazy Dharma project. I know I'd be repeating those numbers over and over in my head if I had to enter them into a computer 13 times every day.

From last week's thread...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...4&&#post3303134

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:33 AM   #176 (Print)
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Already dead before they got on the plane?

I kept ping-ponging back in my head about more literal and metaphysical angles of what is going on.

Someone mentioned that there many of the people on the island were in car crashes. Hurley's box factory exploded as well. Can anyone rule out the theory that everyone on Oceanic flight 815 was already dead before they got on the plane ?

Here's my theory: The plane was a conduit to the afterlife. When the airplane "crashed," those who were ready to move on, "died" again, or were reborn (i. e. even Jack's troubled father--remember that Jack saw a vision of him)....

Those who held on to their unresolved issues "survived" in limbo and are stuck on the island. Now the two "tribes" from the flight will have to stop trying to kill each other and work together, as well as the individuals working out their own stuff. As Jean-Paul Sartre said, "l'enfer c'est les autres." (Usually translated as "Hell is other people" but iterally, "Hell is the others.....") I have recently joined this forum and I've read a lot, though not all, and I haven't seen anyone propose Sartre's work "No Exit," where people are stuck in a hellish afterlife together making each other miserable, as a model for Lost.

I think that when the button is no longer pushed, the island will end, which is a good thing, and everyone will be transported on to a better stage of the afterlife.

Can anyone else help parse whether the main characters had all had possibly deadly experiences before boarding Flight 815? etc.??? We may not have scenes of all of these incidents, but there may be logical inferences, such as Charlie and a possible herion overdose.

After all, Desmond had said "see you in another life" to Jack, and now, as he's escaping, he says it again.

Last edited by mojomom : 10-06-2005 at 09:42 AM. Reason: darn typo
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:35 AM   #177 (Print)
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Here's a few "me toos" based on what's already been said.

1. From the film it seemed clear (1) there are more research stations on the island and (2) they are doing very different if not totally unrelated work. This lead me to wonder if somehow the "Swan" station is a "dead man's brake" (old railroad term) against the other experiments/stations getting out of control. If the Swan station was abandoned or overrun and the code wasn't entered, some sort of island-wide self-destruct sequence could be triggered. Maybe it's a code sent to a kamikaze satellite (which of course may not even be flying anymore).

The code & button exercise could all be a psychology experiment, but it seems so one-dimensional that it's implausible they'd go to such lengths to mentally torture some long sequence of people for 540 days each. It may have devolved into a mind-hump based on Calvin and Desmond's experiences, but I don't think it was designed that way.

So today I'm in the camp that believes there would be a catastrophe or some major event if the code wasn't entered, but I reserve the right to change my mind.

2. From the behavior of Ana and the captor, there are several tail section survivors who have had a very different experience on their part of the island, probably with more direct confrontations with the "others" who are either part of Dharma or just other castaways who've "gotten sick" or are otherwise caught up in the Dharma effects on other parts of the island. They seemed to be clear-thinking and cautious, not part of any Dharma station (or else they wouldn't be in a hole and would be better supplied). I don't know if they dug the pit for our three captives or if it was there before to hold any captured "others."

How many shipwrecks and plane crashes have occurred here? How many sets of "others" could there be wandering around? With the Black Rock in the middle of the island and the old plane up on the cliff, it seems the "supernatural" events around the island must have predated the Dharma Initiative.

So was the island chosen by Dharma accidentally or intentionally? I'm guessing intentionally. How did they zero in on this location? Dunno.

So how much of the Dharma project relates to monitoring and harnessing the island's properties, and how much is Dharma doing something to cause them? IMO, it's the former, not the latter.

3. No matter how wealthy or secret Dharma may be, I can't imagine a conspiracy theory that could explain how Desmond and Jack both ended up on the island. But likewise I can't imagine what "natural" events would have brought them there either. Like Locke said, "it's impossible." To me, if they unveil some puppet-master at Hanso steering all these people to the island, it'll be hard to swallow. But if it comes to that I'm open to their attempt.

4. The actor who plays Locke deserves an Emmy. Has anyone rewatched Locke's phonecall with "Helen" to see if it sounds like Katey Segal? Could he have been paying someone to play "Helen?" If it is Helen, it lends credence to the idea up above that Locke's father paid her a large sum of money to get him off her back.

Love. This. Show.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:43 AM   #178 (Print)
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The "Helen" on the phone with Locke was obviously a phone sex operator that he requested to call "Helen." They'll reveal either Helen died (maybe in the accident that cost him his legs) or left him over some stubborn shortcoming. He becomes obsessed with phone sex Helen.

Also the producers (Damon and JJ) have said repeatedly: They're not dead. They're not in purgatory. It's not a dream.
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Old 10-06-2005, 09:44 AM   #179 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
What's the chance that Helen is another plant from Locke's father, but to get him to leave him alone this time?




This is exactly what I kept thinking, when she was talking about him leaving his father alone....

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Old 10-06-2005, 09:47 AM   #180 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter000
Also, what was the name of the guy that Hurly tracked down who supposedly had information about the numbers? And what was the name of the guy in the institution who kept repeating the numbers all the time?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomom
I think the mental patient Hurley met who gave him the numbers was an escapee from the hatch. The partner of the guy that Desmond met was unaccounted for.


A reminder: Hurley got the numbers from Lenny who got them from Sam Toomey who heard them while working as a radio operator in the Pacific (according to Sam's wife).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth
Well, I watched the film again.

There were several places where it looked like portions of the film had been removed -- the splicing was poor. One was mentioned above -- when it looked like he was about to say why one must press the button. But there were 3 or 4 more. Age effects? Or someone wanted to cut parts of it out . . .?
I think they were merely age effects. Someone had spliced together the film after it had broken. Anyone old enough to remember 16mm or 8mm educational documentaries will recognize the effect. I think it was simply fortuitous (for the writers ) that the missing piece withheld information that would be valuable to the viewers.
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