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Old 11-16-2005, 12:57 PM   #1 (Print)
Turtleboy
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World Series of Poker on ESPN (all spoilers ok)

Now that it's over, what did people think?

I dunno, it didn't seem as great this year as it was last year.

(Aside from seeing myself on TV there).

Also, I didn't watch all of the final table show. Did they mention that the final table actually took 13 hours?
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:02 PM   #2 (Print)
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They didn't mention it, but they did show evidence of how grueling the final day was.

I thought the final table was a disappointment, as it wasn't really a show of great skill. It was, as the game has become today, a bunch of situations where people felt they would take a chance on a coin flip and see what happens. You could feel that change in the decision process take place when they first moved to Binions, and the female lawyer kept taking coin flips and Raymer and Ivey were crushed by Kanter.

I have to say they did a good job with the storytelling this year, really getting an "anti-hero" feel for Matusow, who was pretty much demonized the year before. Sheik played the new villian very well, and they got you feeling good about Dannenman.

I think they tried to emphasize just how grueling the whole week was, partially in an attempt to prevent everyone and their mother from trying to play in it next year.
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Old 11-16-2005, 01:11 PM   #3 (Print)
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Yeah, I agree that there wasn't much of a story this year.

I bet ESPN regrets not showing the women's final table (they didn't put them at the featured TV table), especially after Jennifer Tilly won.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:21 PM   #4 (Print)
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It was great television that had little relationship to poker.
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Old 11-16-2005, 02:47 PM   #5 (Print)
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Jennifer Tilley is always worth a shot or two, she like to show the cleavage Please explain to me the logic of having a women's only tournament and then a tournament here anyone can enter. Can you imagine a "men's only" tournament today? There is no physical factor here, similar to billiards, yet women enjoy their own tournament, seems pretty sexist to me. But, I've found discrimination is cool as long as it is guys who take it on the chin. Hehehehe.

Kanter, a local from my area, was just plain dumb lucky most of the tournament.

When it was all over, all I could think was just how too much luck plays into the game. I play online all the time and in local tournaments. Skill does rise to the top, but I see where luck is such a factor as to make the final results questionable as to "did the best player win?" A couple of years ago, Penny Packer (Moneymaker) was proof of this. He won the WSOP and in the last couple of days he was all in with tremendous odds against him four or five times, giving people bad beat after bad beat.

I still enjoyed the whole show. I still enjoy poker, but the final results must always taken with a grain of salt. I guess the only "game" without luck is chess, and I ain't watching that on TV any time soon.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:33 AM   #6 (Print)
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I think they try to pick which events they are going to televise ahead of time, and didn't expect much from the women's tournament. Had they known Tilly would win, I'm sure they'd show it.

This can be evidenced by the fact that they clearly did not plan on showing the Chan/Laak final table, until they heard that Johnny could win #10 and rushed the cameras over. From what I hear, that final heads up was a real marathon, and they didn't make it seem that long on TV because they had to squeeze it onto an episode they already had stuff for.
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:37 AM   #7 (Print)
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At the Rio, it was a huge huge cavernous room with hundreds of tables.

But only one table in the corner was the "Featured TV table" with the cameras built into the table and every hand being filmed.

Cameramen were also roaming around filming individual tables, but they couldn't catch everything
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Old 11-17-2005, 09:50 AM   #8 (Print)
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When you sign up, do you have to agree to show your cards to the hole-card-cams?
Also, do you have to agree to be interviewed and give lots of personal information (profession, hometown, etc)?

If I thought I could win a million dollars, I wouldn't want to advertise lots of information about me---that's just going to draw out the people begging for it...
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:53 AM   #9 (Print)
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Has any one read about the Tournament of Champions this year? It's set to be televised on Christmas Eve (I think). There was some controversy because they invited people who didn't make WSOP final tables to the tournament, like Doyle Brunson and Phil Helmuth. Reportedly, Matusow and Helmuth are going to make good TV.
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:56 AM   #10 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
Has any one read about the Tournament of Champions this year? It's set to be televised on Christmas Eve (I think). There was some controversy because they invited people who didn't make WSOP final tables to the tournament, like Doyle Brunson and Phil Helmuth. Reportedly, Matusow and Helmuth are going to make good TV.


I believe the TOC took place either last weekend or the weekend before. If you do a bit of searching you can find out who won.
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Old 11-17-2005, 10:57 AM   #11 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
Has any one read about the Tournament of Champions this year? It's set to be televised on Christmas Eve (I think). There was some controversy because they invited people who didn't make WSOP final tables to the tournament, like Doyle Brunson and Phil Helmuth. Reportedly, Matusow and Helmuth are going to make good TV.


Intesting. I haven't heared about it.

I hope they don't invite the undeserving Annie Duke this year.
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:04 AM   #12 (Print)
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Dont they have to invite the defending champ? She was surely not the best woman player last year or this, but she did win that table.

There's bound to be controversy; there's more than 10 people to invite. I wonder if our new Aussie champ flew all the way up for it. That's something I didn't initially think of .. he's surely going to make less appearances than the last two winners did.
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:12 AM   #13 (Print)
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They changed the way players were selected for the TOC. In order to get people to play in the circuit events, everyone who finished 20th or higher in a circuit even was in the TOC. In addition, everyone at the final table of the main even was in. Then Pepsi came along & offered $2 million & they were able to get 3 additional people (Chan, Brunson, & Helmuth) in. I believe the total number of people was about 110.
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:28 AM   #14 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JPinAZ
I believe the TOC took place either last weekend or the weekend before. If you do a bit of searching you can find out who won.
You think?
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Old 11-17-2005, 11:40 AM   #15 (Print)
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Is it really 110 people? That's disappointing. I preferred the 1 table format. I'd rather have the debates about who deserves than have it another tournament where some folks can coin flip their way to the end.
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Old 11-17-2005, 03:17 PM   #16 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
Has any one read about the Tournament of Champions this year? It's set to be televised on Christmas Eve (I think). There was some controversy because they invited people who didn't make WSOP final tables to the tournament, like Doyle Brunson and Phil Helmuth. Reportedly, Matusow and Helmuth are going to make good TV.


Both Helmuth and Brunson made final tables this year, and Burnson won his 10th bracelet at 6 handed holdem I believe. I think Helmuth made the final table at an Omaha event which he barely ever plays.

I saw who won the TOC accidentally, it's hard to not see it if you go to any major poker sites. It's gonna be 3 hours on Christmas Eve, so that should be some good poker to watch.

As for the final table, i don't know what it is, the pressure, or the long play, but i don't know what these guys are thinking some time. Scott Lazar from Studio City just threw away his chips in two hands because he wanted to gamble.

I never understood the bluff call play

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Old 11-17-2005, 03:48 PM   #17 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smak
I think Helmuth made the final table at an Omaha event


Correct. How could you forget the cooler of pocket Aces hitting a set at the same time as his pocket Kings?! Classic Phil reaction. I was actually kind of amazed that Matusow reacted similarly, but not as severe, to his Kings/Aces cooler at the final table.

As for the TOC, I've avoided info. I managed to avoid all spoilers of the WSOP, but it is a little upsetting to hear that I have to avoid all the sites until December now, too~
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Old 11-17-2005, 04:52 PM   #18 (Print)
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Oh, right. How could I forget Brunson's 10th?

I looked it up and to qualify for the TOC you had to have finished in the top 20 in the six WSOP events between January and July 2005, which neither Brunson nor Helmuth nor Chan had managed to do.

Event organizers (and probably ESPN) decided that they would ignore the qualification rules that they had announced about a year ago. Next year they'll remember to include spots for "sponsor's exemptions" in the qualification rules.
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Old 11-17-2005, 04:57 PM   #19 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
Oh, right. How could I forget Brunson's 10th?

I looked it up and to qualify for the TOC you had to have finished in the top 20 in the six WSOP events between January and July 2005,


But there were 20-30 WSOP events in June. Which 6?
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:01 PM   #20 (Print)
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This is all I know:

http://www.pokerplayernewspaper.com...icle.php?id=801

Quote:
Invited players include all of the highest finishers at World Series of Poker Circuit events held during the previous year. From January-July 2005, six WSOP events were held – at Atlantic City, San Diego, Lake Tahoe, New Orleans, and two in Las Vegas. The top 20 players from each event qualified to play in this invitational tournament, competing for two million dollars in prize money. First place will pay $1 million.
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:07 PM   #21 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice


You left out the word "Circuit" from your previous post.
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:16 PM   #22 (Print)
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Ah, silly me. I didn't know that made a difference. I've learned something today.

This is from the WSOP website (Edit: results spoilers are on the page linked to below):

http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/qualifiers.asp

Quote:
The 2005 version of the Tournament of Champions will be held November 6-8 at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas, and will match the top 20 point earners from each Circuit Tournament, as well as the final table from Event 42 of the 2005 World Series of Poker.

Last edited by Fool Me Twice : 11-17-2005 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:33 PM   #23 (Print)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool Me Twice
Ah, silly me. I didn't know that made a difference. I've learned something today.

This is from the WSOP website:

http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/qualifiers.asp



WARNING!!!! Results spoilers are in that link!
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Old 11-17-2005, 05:34 PM   #24 (Print)
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Just finished the final table shows last night, observations...


-> Lazar had the biggest meltdown ever. Many may not know this, but the two hands they showed in a row where he busted out actually happened that way (no big gap between hands). This was right after his fold of Ax when the board came with three Aces. Just absolutely stupid and enabled Hachem to double up at just the right time

-> Hachem's Q7 hitting the Q on the flop versus a pair. He was a 70-30 dog there to go home and got lucky. He also got very lucky that he didn't make the "correct" call against Kanter's straight draw. Hachem was ahead and folded to an all-in re-raise. Wrong play that turned out right when the rabbit card turned out to hit Kanter's straight.

-> Dannenman's final hand was flat out stupid. A ton of hands beat him there and with the blind structure and stacks the way they were, pushing that many chips at that time was just stupid. That said, it was 13.5 hours into it and he was already a multi-millionaire, and his play prior was great.

-> Matusow reminds me of every single poker player I've ever met that likes to complain that they never get cards, can't hit flops, etc., etc., etc. yet makes $1 million by making the final table. His antics grow old on TV, I can't imagine actually playing live with the guy.

-> Andrew Black played great poker and just got unlucky.

-> Kanter is a major suckout

-> Kondracki played well short stacked, IMO.

-> ESPN's coverage SUCKS. They show 1 hand to one special human interest story. I much prefer the WPT coverage approach, more hands, less BS..

-> ESPN's Norman Chad is at times funny and at times the most uninteresting repetative person ever. And I think he is a closet gay perhaps, makes a lot of comments on people's looks, shirts, etc. especially Jennifer Harman's hairdressing hubby.
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Old 11-17-2005, 06:40 PM   #25 (Print)
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If you looked like Norman Chad, you'd want to look like Jen Harmon's husband.

I guess in Raymer's case, losing to a donkey play by somebody who would never be in the tournament if not for the poker boom is helped a bit by his $350,000 payday. 3 years ago, 25th place would have been like $15,000.

The ESPN could be much better and MUCH more in depth. The final table could have easily been 4 or 6 hours.

In Danneman's defense, it can be hard to adjust your thinking that in heads up your opponent could literally have anything. In 9 handed play, 456 looks like it couldn't possibly hit your opponent better than your A3. And then with the A on the turn he looked golden.

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Old 11-17-2005, 06:43 PM   #26 (Print)
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PS. Anybody here who doesn't know, we have a TC spinoff pokersite that we all discuss poker.

www.tcpokercommunity.com

Sign up with your TC name and we'll get you set up.

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Old 11-18-2005, 08:53 AM   #27 (Print)
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Actually now that's its come up .. is it possible that I can contact an Admin for the poker site? I cannot request my pw (tried to register months ago, didn't work right) as my account is inactive, but my sign on (same as here, MitchO) and email addy is still "taken".

PM for any info you need from me would be great. Thanks.
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Old 11-18-2005, 08:55 AM   #28 (Print)
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smak is the admin.
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:31 PM   #29 (Print)
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Sorry Mitch, you're good now.

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Old 11-22-2005, 10:41 AM   #30 (Print)
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Nothing to apologize for. Thanks a ton!
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